oops, wish I could delete that now. I'm not sure how to explain that further.
The previous social worker, from my perception, was trying to make me into someone I'm not and seemed to get frustrated and upset with me. It seemed she was trying to make me fit into something I couldn't fit into. I kept on going over and over on my "special interest" and she'd try to argue against my ideas and thoughts rather than try to help me understand how to live in a world that I don't and didn't want to mentally integrate into. I kept looking at what I felt was the bigger picture and not doing very well with dealing with the details of my life and handling them. This new guy has so far been better at leaving those ideas alone and trying to help me with the details of life, I guess. When he told me I needed to sometimes feed the machine I thought it was going all back to what it was before and it scared me. I didn't get that from his point of view he was telling me that I needed to also focus on the details.
The basic question I had was, how do I deal with living in the world as it is, while knowing it ought to be another way??? This is a real question that I've had a hard time dealing with as an adult. I asked this because it is often hard for me to function but I don't want to deal with this problem by "assimilation" or "getting with the program" which I find depressing....I tried writing a pastor and calling him but no reply. No one can seem to answer me this question or understand what I am saying to them. In my experience, the social worker will say, I need to change my thoughts about the structure and environment of the world to do better. But that sounds like social control to me and from my perspective it is defining "better" as what society says is right instead of it all being based on higher values and principles. If say, the world is based on lower values and principles, rather than the higher principles/values that it should be, and ask how to deal with that (again, gap between intellect and maturity and being able to handle some of my thoughts), it makes no sense to me, to tell me, to change my thoughts and principles and who who I am, to be "happier"......
In my experience, I was being told feelings were the truth, not higher values/principles. I'd be asked, "how do those thoughts make you feel"!
I can't seem to get an answer from anyone and it was driving me crazy.
How does one function in a world while having the imagination and intellect for something better? The only answer that I've been able to come up with is christ crucified which suits me much better than simply changing my values. I recognize the need to able to function on the details of my life now and he's supposedly going to help me with that and there's this asperger's/autistic spectrum community in my area which I am looking into attending or trying to be a part of. I talked with one of the organizers of it, a mother, and she replied to me welcoming me.
Basis of Theology - Biblical? Philosophical? Or. . ?
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runamokmonk
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Re: Basis of Theology - Biblical? Philosophical? Or. . ?
Monk,
How does Christ crucified solve your problem? I'm not saying that Jesus isn't the solution; I'm just asking why you think so.
- Gwarlroge
P.S. I too have Asperger's syndrome. Or so they say.
How does Christ crucified solve your problem? I'm not saying that Jesus isn't the solution; I'm just asking why you think so.
- Gwarlroge
P.S. I too have Asperger's syndrome. Or so they say.
Re: Basis of Theology - Biblical? Philosophical? Or. . ?
I don't understand you completely, Runamokmonk, but I think I've had a similar problem.
When you talk about "higher principles" and so on, do you mean that you look at the early church and think, "Why aren't we living like this?" It doesn't even have to be the early church--it could be a famous missionary or someone you've met who "lived by faith." Maybe you read the New Testament and developed a vision of how you should live life.
For me, all of this is the problem. Going through life, it feels like there should be miracles and radical generosity a la 2 Corinthians 9. It feels like, if I really trusted Jesus, then I would "live by faith," walking around and doing whatever God wanted, knowing that His sovereign grace would give me food, shelter, and comfort when needed. Or, to domesticize that a little bit, it feels like I could be a missionary, suffer, and love Jesus Christ in a way that is much more "real" than anything I have known before.
So why don't I live like that? Do I only lack the courage? If I were less attached to family, friends, and "the cares of the world," then maybe I could live such a life.
...
The main problems I see with this mindset are the following:
(1) It's very self-centered. As you can see from the pronouns in this post, this lifestyle is very self-centered. Whenever I imagine it happening, I always see myself doing things; I always see myself helping people and loving God. Maybe some of this is harmless or even good, but I tend to think it's a form of pride. After all, when other people tell you to "lighten up," what's your first reaction? Mine is to adopt a defensive attitude, even if I don't express it verbally. "Lighten up?! But this is what God wants and I happen to know it!" I'm right and everyone else is blind! I'm intellectually or spiritually advanced (or a Christian genius by nature)! They just don't get it! Etc. -- You can see the problem.
Add to that the fact that it reduces loved ones and friends to "cares of the world" that need to be avoided. The call to discipleship is radical, but does putting Christ first mean that we should stop thinking of our friends and coworkers as people? I mean real people that need help and encouragement, not "people" in an abstract sense, like people halfway across the world you don't know.
(2) It places subjective impressions above the Word of God. How much of your anxiety is caused by the witness of Scripture? True, we should have hearts that tremble at the Word of God. But most of the time, the anguish I feel is because of an unwarranted focus on strong impressions to "sell everything and walk eastward" (= my usual desire).
If you say to yourself, "Yeah, but I have this impression because I respect the word of God more than most people do," then again, the issue here is most likely pride.
If you say, "Whether I respect the Word of God or not, this seems to be an impression from God's Holy Spirit," then the stakes are really high. If you refuse to act on the impression, then you may (so you think) commit the unforgivable sin. If you act on it, the worst that can happen is a ruined earthly life. The tension is enormous. In this case of uncertainty, your only hope is Christ anyway: so trust Him with all of your heart. And with that in place, don't assume that every impression you get--even an obsessive one--is from God. It might not be. You don't know. The sin against the Holy Spirit, as far as I know, is saying that Jesus casts out demons by the prince of demons and denying that he works in the power of the Holy Spirit. If you are afraid of committing this sin, then that argues that you don't love that sin; and if you don't love it, then maybe it is only a temptation, and maybe you are a child of God.
(3) It provides convenient excuses. Assuming that you are where God wants you to be placed--right now, even with your sins and failures, with the disobedience paid for on the cross--are you giving your all for the people around you? Let's say you want to leave home and become a missionary. Do you want to do that because you have great compassion for the lost? Or do you just not feel right when you stay at home and try halfheartedly at tasks which may or may not be duties?
True, you may object that (e.g.) Paul was made an apostle by the will of God. He didn't think about himself: Jesus called him and God gave him a compassion for others. But you're not sure about your case. If you try to say, "Yes I am but I'm just not acting on God's call," then check yourself against Scripture. Since you aren't sure, read through the NT and see if you're committing a clear sin. If you can't think of a definite sin except maybe "disobedience to God's call," then maybe you aren't disobeying God's call.
...
Do you doubt God's goodness? If so, there are two options: (1) You say Yes, I do; I don't believe He's good enough to support my missionary endeavors, and that's why I'm disobeying. -- This is possible, but it's hard to know that you'd doubt Him any less if you hit the road and became a radical.
And then (2) Yes, I do; I don't believe He's good enough to let me stay here and live a fairly boring life; or I don't believe He would really die for someone like me who can't obey Him despite the massive amounts of truth I know.
Runamokmonk, this has been an Asperger's rant on my part. I don't know whether we are called to be apostles or something similar. There is mediocrity aplenty in American Christianity, and I am guilty of it like anyone else. Maybe we really do know something about the gospel that we don't live out. If so, then we will be accountable for it on the Day of Christ. But, as Calvin says, when we get too worked up about Judgment Day, we have to remember that Christ was punished for our sins already. Unbelief in Christ's purchase is just as sinful as an unbelief in His promises to those who leave their homes.
All we can do is pray for grace, look at church history, ask for help from assured Christians we know, read our Bibles, hear the Word preached, and do what we can in our uncertainty. I pray God will help us to live in a manner worthy of the gospel. And of course if He called us, He will.
When you talk about "higher principles" and so on, do you mean that you look at the early church and think, "Why aren't we living like this?" It doesn't even have to be the early church--it could be a famous missionary or someone you've met who "lived by faith." Maybe you read the New Testament and developed a vision of how you should live life.
For me, all of this is the problem. Going through life, it feels like there should be miracles and radical generosity a la 2 Corinthians 9. It feels like, if I really trusted Jesus, then I would "live by faith," walking around and doing whatever God wanted, knowing that His sovereign grace would give me food, shelter, and comfort when needed. Or, to domesticize that a little bit, it feels like I could be a missionary, suffer, and love Jesus Christ in a way that is much more "real" than anything I have known before.
So why don't I live like that? Do I only lack the courage? If I were less attached to family, friends, and "the cares of the world," then maybe I could live such a life.
...
The main problems I see with this mindset are the following:
(1) It's very self-centered. As you can see from the pronouns in this post, this lifestyle is very self-centered. Whenever I imagine it happening, I always see myself doing things; I always see myself helping people and loving God. Maybe some of this is harmless or even good, but I tend to think it's a form of pride. After all, when other people tell you to "lighten up," what's your first reaction? Mine is to adopt a defensive attitude, even if I don't express it verbally. "Lighten up?! But this is what God wants and I happen to know it!" I'm right and everyone else is blind! I'm intellectually or spiritually advanced (or a Christian genius by nature)! They just don't get it! Etc. -- You can see the problem.
Add to that the fact that it reduces loved ones and friends to "cares of the world" that need to be avoided. The call to discipleship is radical, but does putting Christ first mean that we should stop thinking of our friends and coworkers as people? I mean real people that need help and encouragement, not "people" in an abstract sense, like people halfway across the world you don't know.
(2) It places subjective impressions above the Word of God. How much of your anxiety is caused by the witness of Scripture? True, we should have hearts that tremble at the Word of God. But most of the time, the anguish I feel is because of an unwarranted focus on strong impressions to "sell everything and walk eastward" (= my usual desire).
If you say to yourself, "Yeah, but I have this impression because I respect the word of God more than most people do," then again, the issue here is most likely pride.
If you say, "Whether I respect the Word of God or not, this seems to be an impression from God's Holy Spirit," then the stakes are really high. If you refuse to act on the impression, then you may (so you think) commit the unforgivable sin. If you act on it, the worst that can happen is a ruined earthly life. The tension is enormous. In this case of uncertainty, your only hope is Christ anyway: so trust Him with all of your heart. And with that in place, don't assume that every impression you get--even an obsessive one--is from God. It might not be. You don't know. The sin against the Holy Spirit, as far as I know, is saying that Jesus casts out demons by the prince of demons and denying that he works in the power of the Holy Spirit. If you are afraid of committing this sin, then that argues that you don't love that sin; and if you don't love it, then maybe it is only a temptation, and maybe you are a child of God.
(3) It provides convenient excuses. Assuming that you are where God wants you to be placed--right now, even with your sins and failures, with the disobedience paid for on the cross--are you giving your all for the people around you? Let's say you want to leave home and become a missionary. Do you want to do that because you have great compassion for the lost? Or do you just not feel right when you stay at home and try halfheartedly at tasks which may or may not be duties?
True, you may object that (e.g.) Paul was made an apostle by the will of God. He didn't think about himself: Jesus called him and God gave him a compassion for others. But you're not sure about your case. If you try to say, "Yes I am but I'm just not acting on God's call," then check yourself against Scripture. Since you aren't sure, read through the NT and see if you're committing a clear sin. If you can't think of a definite sin except maybe "disobedience to God's call," then maybe you aren't disobeying God's call.
...
Do you doubt God's goodness? If so, there are two options: (1) You say Yes, I do; I don't believe He's good enough to support my missionary endeavors, and that's why I'm disobeying. -- This is possible, but it's hard to know that you'd doubt Him any less if you hit the road and became a radical.
And then (2) Yes, I do; I don't believe He's good enough to let me stay here and live a fairly boring life; or I don't believe He would really die for someone like me who can't obey Him despite the massive amounts of truth I know.
Runamokmonk, this has been an Asperger's rant on my part. I don't know whether we are called to be apostles or something similar. There is mediocrity aplenty in American Christianity, and I am guilty of it like anyone else. Maybe we really do know something about the gospel that we don't live out. If so, then we will be accountable for it on the Day of Christ. But, as Calvin says, when we get too worked up about Judgment Day, we have to remember that Christ was punished for our sins already. Unbelief in Christ's purchase is just as sinful as an unbelief in His promises to those who leave their homes.
All we can do is pray for grace, look at church history, ask for help from assured Christians we know, read our Bibles, hear the Word preached, and do what we can in our uncertainty. I pray God will help us to live in a manner worthy of the gospel. And of course if He called us, He will.
Last edited by Gwarlroge on Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Basis of Theology - Biblical? Philosophical? Or. . ?
And if I got even close to the right idea of what you mean, then the church might be at a historical low point as far as missions are concerned. The church must be very small.
(If I didn't describe your feelings right, then I was just preaching to myself, which may have some value. Or it may be morbid and unhealthy. Either way....)
Monk, I think that the best hope for someone like you is in the Sermon on the Mount. "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled." Do you hunger and thirst for righteousness?
And have you read The Bruised Reed (by Richard Sibbes)? It's really helpful.
(If I didn't describe your feelings right, then I was just preaching to myself, which may have some value. Or it may be morbid and unhealthy. Either way....)
Monk, I think that the best hope for someone like you is in the Sermon on the Mount. "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled." Do you hunger and thirst for righteousness?
And have you read The Bruised Reed (by Richard Sibbes)? It's really helpful.
Re: Basis of Theology - Biblical? Philosophical? Or. . ?
On reducing one's friends to "cares of the world": I suppose it is possible to say with Christ that "whoever does the will of God is my mother and sister and brother" (though idk if I quoted that right). I would need to think more about that. :/
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runamokmonk
- Posts:339
- Joined:Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:34 pm
Re: Basis of Theology - Biblical? Philosophical? Or. . ?
Hi,
I'm not sure I'll be able to respond to what you're asking...
Well, when I speak of Christ crucified I am talking about accepting the tension between what is and I think, what ought to be, (the kingdom of God, I guess). I like saying it that way because it seems simple to me and because that's my experience. And since I see God there in that experience of my life it changes everything and has now allowed me to be able to change my hyper-focus on the question I had. But even if it wasn't God there in that, I'd still prefer Jesus, even truly abandoned by God in a truly physicalist universe, because he died for what I believe are higher principles. But believing God really is crucified makes more of a difference as it is God throwing his lot in with us. It changes everything.
I don't know or understand much about original sin or why the world is as it is (except that I think it's partly because humans are concious of their deaths...Ernest Becker). I don't believe in answer to the theodicy question, the only "answer", which is not actually an answer, is the crucified God. No real answer. I"d suggest reading this book, The Mystical and Prophetic Thought of Simone Weil and Gustavo Gutirrez: Reflections on the Mystery and Hiddenness of God.
http://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Propheti ... 079145178X
I don't know what the kingdom of God would really be but that our higher values and principles point to that.
I don't think I have the highest principles and values and act on them but that I believe I love them and want them for the world. I mean, I believe I truly do. I look at those desires of mine when I cannot feel God's love. I didn't originally have the belief that these were from God but that I simply wanted them because I wanted them and thought there were of higher value then what I currently see. This does not mean I am saying that I act saintly. In fact, I don't even think I want to do good to save myself. This is not about heaven or hell to me when I talk about these things. I'm saying the way the world is, is painful to me.
I think people should focus on those things, try to figure them out for themselves since I believe they come from God. I think when two principles or values are put side by side we should try to figure out which one is higher and try to figure out how to go by that. I think these things are filtered through us and seen in many religions. I personally can't understand being told what to believe or think in regards to these things but I fully agree with pointing out when structures and belief systems hurt others dignity or autonomy. I started off without God and went by what I thought was of higher principles and focused my thoughts on what are some of the things which cause the world some of it's problems. Especially things I took issue with and which does include how they effect others. My question was, "why isn't the world this way?", and I looked for what may be stopping it from being so. My back ground is more from a highly atheistic political philosophy but does not require one to be such. I look at some of these atheists and the things they say and it is religious in a way. In fact, in some ways, I prefer them and enjoy some of their criticisms against religion.
I'm not talking about me being a missionary or saint. My issue is with what was slamming me in the face what my focus was on. And apparently because I like figuring things out that get a hold of me.
Usually when I think about the values and principles I am more concerned with the environment, belief systems and institutional structures and I am not as concerned as much with moralism with individuals. Or I try not to be and sometimes likely fail or sometimes across wrong. In my perception I think I've also observed people using their ability to behave morally, make more stringent rules, and dominate others with their morality. This is why I like Jesus. The folks who hung out with him would likely not want to be around someone who made them feel inferior. If it comes across that I am doing that I don't think I mean to. It is hard for me to be around religious people because in my experience I can't live up to them and it felt fake in some ways and I didn't believe as they believed and so I had to leave.
I talked so much about Christ Crucified and the dichotomy between the is/ought because I thought it was great. I think that's where I feel God's love or see it even if it hurts. I thought others must have felt that tension or was trying to make something really good out of it. Writing on here caused me to think and focus more and more. Now I've come to believe and be more comfortable with what I believe is the answer to my question. How do I function with this because it was constantly slamming me in the face in different ways, (this tension)? I personally think my answer is to accept the tension and the mess of it and know God is there. So now I'm going to try to focus on the details of my life and I feel much better about it now. (I've come to this conclusion or sort of peace just recently, actually)
I also don't read the bible much, because it reminds me of weird interpretations, or I don't understand the way things are written, I don't get the religious doctrines, or because I go through periods where I can't read much books. I also believe the bible is simply written and filtered through people similar to how I believe our principles and values are filtered through us from God.
Now, I'm sure more educated people could rip the above apart but it works for me. I don't know how to create an argument or philosophy to defend what I think are higher values. But I know what I think are higher values and they'll grow when others have their even higher values make sense to me. This allows everyone to chime in, whether atheist or whatever, with each other on what they think. I think the ground of these principles and values are from God and we just weigh against the lesser and higher. Again, I don't understand or comprehend being given a rule book but I look at Jesus because he lived to death. And there is authority in that picture.
Remember, I say all these things but personally, relationally, I am paradoxical, especially with people.
This sums it up for me
"Freedom, morality, and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in this; that he does good not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely conceives it, wants it, and loves it."
Bakunin
I'm not sure I'll be able to respond to what you're asking...
Well, when I speak of Christ crucified I am talking about accepting the tension between what is and I think, what ought to be, (the kingdom of God, I guess). I like saying it that way because it seems simple to me and because that's my experience. And since I see God there in that experience of my life it changes everything and has now allowed me to be able to change my hyper-focus on the question I had. But even if it wasn't God there in that, I'd still prefer Jesus, even truly abandoned by God in a truly physicalist universe, because he died for what I believe are higher principles. But believing God really is crucified makes more of a difference as it is God throwing his lot in with us. It changes everything.
I don't know or understand much about original sin or why the world is as it is (except that I think it's partly because humans are concious of their deaths...Ernest Becker). I don't believe in answer to the theodicy question, the only "answer", which is not actually an answer, is the crucified God. No real answer. I"d suggest reading this book, The Mystical and Prophetic Thought of Simone Weil and Gustavo Gutirrez: Reflections on the Mystery and Hiddenness of God.
http://www.amazon.com/Mystical-Propheti ... 079145178X
I don't know what the kingdom of God would really be but that our higher values and principles point to that.
I don't think I have the highest principles and values and act on them but that I believe I love them and want them for the world. I mean, I believe I truly do. I look at those desires of mine when I cannot feel God's love. I didn't originally have the belief that these were from God but that I simply wanted them because I wanted them and thought there were of higher value then what I currently see. This does not mean I am saying that I act saintly. In fact, I don't even think I want to do good to save myself. This is not about heaven or hell to me when I talk about these things. I'm saying the way the world is, is painful to me.
I think people should focus on those things, try to figure them out for themselves since I believe they come from God. I think when two principles or values are put side by side we should try to figure out which one is higher and try to figure out how to go by that. I think these things are filtered through us and seen in many religions. I personally can't understand being told what to believe or think in regards to these things but I fully agree with pointing out when structures and belief systems hurt others dignity or autonomy. I started off without God and went by what I thought was of higher principles and focused my thoughts on what are some of the things which cause the world some of it's problems. Especially things I took issue with and which does include how they effect others. My question was, "why isn't the world this way?", and I looked for what may be stopping it from being so. My back ground is more from a highly atheistic political philosophy but does not require one to be such. I look at some of these atheists and the things they say and it is religious in a way. In fact, in some ways, I prefer them and enjoy some of their criticisms against religion.
I'm not talking about me being a missionary or saint. My issue is with what was slamming me in the face what my focus was on. And apparently because I like figuring things out that get a hold of me.
Usually when I think about the values and principles I am more concerned with the environment, belief systems and institutional structures and I am not as concerned as much with moralism with individuals. Or I try not to be and sometimes likely fail or sometimes across wrong. In my perception I think I've also observed people using their ability to behave morally, make more stringent rules, and dominate others with their morality. This is why I like Jesus. The folks who hung out with him would likely not want to be around someone who made them feel inferior. If it comes across that I am doing that I don't think I mean to. It is hard for me to be around religious people because in my experience I can't live up to them and it felt fake in some ways and I didn't believe as they believed and so I had to leave.
I talked so much about Christ Crucified and the dichotomy between the is/ought because I thought it was great. I think that's where I feel God's love or see it even if it hurts. I thought others must have felt that tension or was trying to make something really good out of it. Writing on here caused me to think and focus more and more. Now I've come to believe and be more comfortable with what I believe is the answer to my question. How do I function with this because it was constantly slamming me in the face in different ways, (this tension)? I personally think my answer is to accept the tension and the mess of it and know God is there. So now I'm going to try to focus on the details of my life and I feel much better about it now. (I've come to this conclusion or sort of peace just recently, actually)
I also don't read the bible much, because it reminds me of weird interpretations, or I don't understand the way things are written, I don't get the religious doctrines, or because I go through periods where I can't read much books. I also believe the bible is simply written and filtered through people similar to how I believe our principles and values are filtered through us from God.
Now, I'm sure more educated people could rip the above apart but it works for me. I don't know how to create an argument or philosophy to defend what I think are higher values. But I know what I think are higher values and they'll grow when others have their even higher values make sense to me. This allows everyone to chime in, whether atheist or whatever, with each other on what they think. I think the ground of these principles and values are from God and we just weigh against the lesser and higher. Again, I don't understand or comprehend being given a rule book but I look at Jesus because he lived to death. And there is authority in that picture.
Remember, I say all these things but personally, relationally, I am paradoxical, especially with people.
This sums it up for me
"Freedom, morality, and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in this; that he does good not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely conceives it, wants it, and loves it."
Bakunin
Last edited by runamokmonk on Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:47 am, edited 8 times in total.
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runamokmonk
- Posts:339
- Joined:Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:34 pm
Re: Basis of Theology - Biblical? Philosophical? Or. . ?
I have not, but I'll look it up though.And have you read The Bruised Reed (by Richard Sibbes)? It's really helpful.
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KR Wordgazer
- Posts:1410
- Joined:Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:07 pm
Re: Basis of Theology - Biblical? Philosophical? Or. . ?
When I read through what you're saying, Gwalroge and Runamokmonk, it seems to me like the dilemma is being expressed in two different but related ways.
1) The world/life is not the way I feel it should be.
2) I myself am not the way I feel I should be.
And I would agree that both of these comprise the basic dilemma that Metacrock calls "the human problematic" -- the problem of being human. "Christ crucified" is for me also, the best answer to the problem I have come across-- and this is not because it is an intellectual answer so much as that it is an emotional answer-- an answer that seems to meet me in my deepest soul needs. He does not give a direct answer to the theodicy question because He Himself is the answer. We are not as we should be; the world is not as it should be-- but our God came down into the middle of the mess that is both of these things, and took that messiness into and onto Himself, in the promise that one day it will also be made whole in Him.
That's really all the answer I need-- and it helps me deal with myself and the world as I find them, and to give both myself and the world the mercy and grace that He has given them. And I think that's what "relational" theology is all about, really. It's not about a set of doctrines, it's about Christ crucified, the Hope of Glory.
1) The world/life is not the way I feel it should be.
2) I myself am not the way I feel I should be.
And I would agree that both of these comprise the basic dilemma that Metacrock calls "the human problematic" -- the problem of being human. "Christ crucified" is for me also, the best answer to the problem I have come across-- and this is not because it is an intellectual answer so much as that it is an emotional answer-- an answer that seems to meet me in my deepest soul needs. He does not give a direct answer to the theodicy question because He Himself is the answer. We are not as we should be; the world is not as it should be-- but our God came down into the middle of the mess that is both of these things, and took that messiness into and onto Himself, in the promise that one day it will also be made whole in Him.
That's really all the answer I need-- and it helps me deal with myself and the world as I find them, and to give both myself and the world the mercy and grace that He has given them. And I think that's what "relational" theology is all about, really. It's not about a set of doctrines, it's about Christ crucified, the Hope of Glory.
Wag more.
Bark less.
Bark less.
Re: Basis of Theology - Biblical? Philosophical? Or. . ?
Hey, Monk. Sorry I just bared my soul for no good reason.runamokmonk wrote:Hi,
Oh well, at least we've each met another Asperger's person. What follows will probably be fairly "preachy," but I like you and am not looking down on you. You can stop reading whenever you like, of course.Well, when I speak of Christ crucified I am talking about accepting the tension between what is and I think, what ought to be, (the kingdom of God, I guess). I like saying it that way because it seems simple to me and because that's my experience. And since I see God there in that experience of my life it changes everything and has now allowed me to be able to change my hyper-focus on the question I had.
Now when you say "that experience of my life," do you mean "seeing" Christ crucified, or something I just totally missed?
Yes, although one could say the same thing about the Incarnation in general! Not only does God know what human life is like because He's omniscient: He's lived it!But even if it wasn't God there in that, I'd still prefer Jesus, even truly abandoned by God in a truly physicalist universe, because he died for what I believe are higher principles. But believing God really is crucified makes more of a difference as it is God throwing his lot in with us. It changes everything.
On the other hand, I don't think that Jesus died so that He could show that God had thrown his lot in with us. (What does that phrase mean to you, BTW?) Jesus was a man of sorrows in other senses, too, and he was tempted in every way, just as we were. Yet he did not need to die on a cross to show his solidarity with humankind. He died for a different reason:
"By [Jesus'] stripes we are healed," "[Jesus] became a curse for us, as it is written, 'Cursed be anyone who hangs on a tree,'" "[God] made him who knew no sin to be sin for us," 1 John 4:10, Romans 3:23-26, 1 Cor. 15:3-4, Mark 10:45, etc.
Jesus died for many reasons, but among these you have to include his atonement for sin. For all who believe in Him, He is the atoning sacrifice for sin. He reconciled us to God, destroyed the power of sin in us, and turned away God's wrath. He rose from the dead, proving that God had accepted his sacrifice and shown him to be Lord of everything.
...At this point, I am about to be carried away. But I'd be interested to know what you think about the Resurrection, Monk.
Well, the world is like this because all (mere) people have chosen to sin. As far as original sin goes: I don't know much about it either, or understand quite how it works. This would be a useful thing to explore.I don't know or understand much about original sin or why the world is as it is (except that I think it's partly because humans are concious of their deaths...Ernest Becker).
"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—" (Romans 5:12).
I haven't studied the book of Hebrews, but this might also relate to what you have in mind:
"Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death." (Heb. 2:14-15)
What do you think death-consciousness does to people?
That's deep.I don't think I have the highest principles and values and act on them but that I believe I love them and want them for the world. I mean, I believe I truly do. I look at those desires of mine when I cannot feel God's love. I didn't originally have the belief that these were from God but that I simply wanted them because I wanted them and thought there were of higher value then what I currently see. This does not mean I am saying that I act saintly. In fact, I don't even think I want to do good to save myself. This is not about heaven or hell to me when I talk about these things. I'm saying the way the world is, is painful to me.
I think people should focus on those things, try to figure them out for themselves since I believe they come from God. I think when two principles or values are put side by side we should try to figure out which one is higher and try to figure out how to go by that.
It's interesting that this principle (that we should discern what is best and pursue it) is such a high value!
Oh, but that's the beauty of it! "Blessed are the poor in spirit"! "Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest"! "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." "The sacrifices that are acceptable to God are a broken spirit and a contrite heart." "Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners."In my perception I think I've also observed people using their ability to behave morally, make more stringent rules, and dominate others with their morality. This is why I like Jesus. The folks who hung out with him would likely not want to be around someone who made them feel inferior. If it comes across that I am doing that I don't think I mean to. It is hard for me to be around religious people because in my experience I can't live up to them and it felt fake in some ways and I didn't believe as they believed and so I had to leave.
Jesus would have made nearly anyone feel "inferior" because they would have felt terrified in the presence of a holy God (think of Peter saying, "Depart from me, Lord, for I am a sinful man!"). And yet He is "gentle and humble in heart." When he walked on water and scared his disciples, he told them, "Take courage! It is I." He loves and saves people who have seen that they are nothing apart from Him.
How did that come about?I talked so much about Christ Crucified and the dichotomy between the is/ought because I thought it was great. I think that's where I feel God's love or see it even if it hurts. I thought others must have felt that tension or was trying to make something really good out of it. Writing on here caused me to think and focus more and more. Now I've come to believe and be more comfortable with what I believe is the answer to my question. How do I function with this because it was constantly slamming me in the face in different ways, (this tension)? I personally think my answer is to accept the tension and the mess of it and know God is there. So now I'm going to try to focus on the details of my life and I feel much better about it now. (I've come to this conclusion or sort of peace just recently, actually)
"The holy Scriptures ... are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus." Not to mention the fact that several people here could probably give you help on understanding it. Ultimately, though, God must help us to interpret his Word. Cf. Proverbs 2. Also, "the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple." "Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart." "Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in all things."I also don't read the bible much, because it reminds me of weird interpretations, or I don't understand the way things are written, I don't get the religious doctrines, or because I go through periods where I can't read much books. I also believe the bible is simply written and filtered through people similar to how I believe our principles and values are filtered through us from God.
I agree with Bakunin's sentiment if not his theology. :p (There are lots of scriptures that say a similar thing. "Serve the Lord with gladness," "Rejoice in the Lord always," "[Jesus gave himself up] to purify for himself a peculiar people zealous for good works," "[we are to] do justice ... love mercy, and walk humbly with [our] God," and Paul says to "...let him who does acts of mercy do them with cheerfulness.")Now, I'm sure more educated people could rip the above apart but it works for me. I don't know how to create an argument or philosophy to defend what I think are higher values. But I know what I think are higher values and they'll grow when others have their even higher values make sense to me. This allows everyone to chime in, whether atheist or whatever, with each other on what they think. I think the ground of these principles and values are from God and we just weigh against the lesser and higher. Again, I don't understand or comprehend being given a rule book but I look at Jesus because he lived to death. And there is authority in that picture.
Remember, I say all these things but personally, relationally, I am paradoxical, especially with people.
This sums it up for me
"Freedom, morality, and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in this; that he does good not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely conceives it, wants it, and loves it."
Bakunin
There's more to be said, but I'd rather address the philosophical stuff later. I don't really like philosophy anymore.
Peace,
Gwarlroge
Last edited by Gwarlroge on Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Basis of Theology - Biblical? Philosophical? Or. . ?
Kristen, whatever I may have said to you before ...KR Wordgazer wrote:When I read through what you're saying, Gwalroge and Runamokmonk, it seems to me like the dilemma is being expressed in two different but related ways.
1) The world/life is not the way I feel it should be.
2) I myself am not the way I feel I should be.
And I would agree that both of these comprise the basic dilemma that Metacrock calls "the human problematic" -- the problem of being human. "Christ crucified" is for me also, the best answer to the problem I have come across-- and this is not because it is an intellectual answer so much as that it is an emotional answer-- an answer that seems to meet me in my deepest soul needs. He does not give a direct answer to the theodicy question because He Himself is the answer. We are not as we should be; the world is not as it should be-- but our God came down into the middle of the mess that is both of these things, and took that messiness into and onto Himself, in the promise that one day it will also be made whole in Him.
That's really all the answer I need-- and it helps me deal with myself and the world as I find them, and to give both myself and the world the mercy and grace that He has given them. And I think that's what "relational" theology is all about, really. It's not about a set of doctrines, it's about Christ crucified, the Hope of Glory.
a hearty Amen to this post!
