How to read the bible

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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KR Wordgazer
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by KR Wordgazer » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:34 am

sgttomas wrote:
KR Wordgazer wrote:First you said that the Bible is unlike the Quran. Now, in the areas which you say evidence the fact that the Quran is different from the Bible, you agree that the Bible has the same evidences. What am I supposed to make of that?
"Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong)...And lo! there is a party of them who distort the Scripture with their tongues, that ye may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they say: It is from Allah, when it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly. It is not (possible) for any human being unto whom Allah had given the Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said unto mankind: Be slaves of me instead of Allah; but (what he said was): Be ye faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the Scripture and of your constant study thereof."
Sorry, but I'm really not sure what you mean or how this is an answer to my question.
You said to examine the life of the Prophet. I figured that meant I was to look upon him as a man who lived his life according to the will of Allah. So-- was it Allah's will that he marry a little girl? And if it was-- what am I to make of Allah?
I don't know, what is your dispute? What are you alleging?
What am I to make of modern-day Muslims who use this example from the Prophet's life as an excuse to marry little girls today?
I don't know, what is it that you are alleging?

(Look, I can assume what you are getting at, but I don't want to put words into your mouth - what is it on the face of things that is wrong with marrying someone of that age? ...A marriage ceremony is repulsive? I'm thinking you are implying something else, so I'm asking you to just say what it is that is in your heart concerning the matter).

Peace,
-sgttomas

It is in my heart that a woman should have free will in whom she marries and should be able to give the consent an adult would give, to something that is going to involve the rest of her life. A little girl has no power of adult consent and any attempt to marry her off must be viewed as coercion, if not outright exploitation.

A little girl is physically unable to consummate a marriage, and any attempt to do so can only be called rape and child molestation. Now, I don't know at what age she was when Mohammed consummated this marriage-- but I do know that the child was not able to make a free choice as an adult. She must therefore be regarded as having been sent without consent into a situation where she had no choice but to eventually consummate a marriage with a man she had not chosen who was many years her senior.

Does Islam view women as completely, fully human in the same way men are fully human? Do women in Islam have the power of self-determination as a man does, over the choices that affect her life? (Yes, I know Islam is about submission to Allah, but a man is not expected to submit to being married at age nine.) If not, then does Allah not value women to the same level as men? Under what circumstances has it come about that nine-year-old girls are considered marriagable? Was this child not being viewed as property? How is that acceptable?

This is what is in my heart. In short, my question is, how can the Quran be a holy book, and how can its Prophet be a holy man, and how can its view of Allah be a view of a holy God, if the marriage of this child was supposed to be the will of Allah? Things like this that are in the Bible can be explained as being human and not divine, due to the nature of the Bible as being written by both humans and God. But if the Quran is divine only, then this is not the sort of thing I expect. And in any event, Christianity is not (except for fundamentalists) ultimately based on the Bible as a God's ultimate, perfect revelation, but on Jesus himself as God's ultimate, perfect revelation. But Jesus never married a little girl or said it was God's will that a little girl be married. Did Mohammed say so? And if it wasn't Allah's will, why did he do it?
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sgttomas
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:41 am

You ask very good questions. This will also take me some time to compose a proper response. I don't even know if I'm capable of giving a reply to a tenth of what you said. I'll see what I can access...

-sgtt
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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met
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by met » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:34 pm

sgttomas wrote:
met wrote:The Word of God would be the Word of God.... wouldn't it? Either God speaks or not.
Well, I'm not really sure what you are differentiating from what we covered already? Are you saying the Quran is the same as V-P? I agree that parts of the Bible are the Word of God, and I agree that parts of it are human speech. That's the contention for Muslims and the affirmation for Christians.

-sgtt
Some Christians believe that the Bible is entirely the word of God--even tho it is all also entirely human speech. (IOW, the Bible is EXACTLy as God wills it to be.) You, otoh, seem to entirely overlook this possibility.

(... and I think this issue might be near the heart of some of our contentions.)
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

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sgttomas
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:19 pm

I don't think this is a point of contention at all. I can accommodate this. I'm just saying that this claim you stated is different from what Muslims say of the Quran: being that it is incomparable to human speech; utterly distinct from any type of human speech. I'm sure we agree on that basic notion. So I categorize that Bible belief through that notion; I claim divine inspiration of that Biblical nature too; it sets up a contradiction. There are ways to resolve it.

-sgtt
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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sgttomas
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:24 pm

KR Wordgazer wrote:
sgttomas wrote: "Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong)...And lo! there is a party of them who distort the Scripture with their tongues, that ye may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they say: It is from Allah, when it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly. It is not (possible) for any human being unto whom Allah had given the Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said unto mankind: Be slaves of me instead of Allah; but (what he said was): Be ye faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the Scripture and of your constant study thereof."
Sorry, but I'm really not sure what you mean or how this is an answer to my question.
Well...its just what it says. You see the similar attributes because ALLAH is One; the One and only God. He sent scripture; people changed it so it no longer speaks fully of the truth - i.e. Jesus never claimed divinity or asked to be worshiped. But the Bible has remembrances of ALLAH's Word, Jesus is a true Prophet of ALLAH, so much carries through.

-sgtt
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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KR Wordgazer
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by KR Wordgazer » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:45 am

Yes, I understand what it says-- but what it doesn't tell me is why the Quran is a different sort of holy book than the Bible. The proofs you have given, apply to both books, as you yourself have agreed.

Islam says the Quran should be trusted over the Bible in the places where they contradict. Christianity says the opposite. As far as I can see, there is no definitive "proof" one way or the other. Accordingly, we must follow our hearts. :D
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met
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by met » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:41 pm

sgttomas wrote:I don't think this is a point of contention at all. I can accommodate this. I'm just saying that this claim you stated is different from what Muslims say of the Quran: being that it is incomparable to human speech; utterly distinct from any type of human speech. I'm sure we agree on that basic notion. So I categorize that Bible belief through that notion; I claim divine inspiration of that Biblical nature too; it sets up a contradiction. There are ways to resolve it.

-sgtt
IN the sense that "God speaks light into being" of course we agree, God's speech is distinct from human speech.

But is that what you're saying? Your claim for the matchlessness of the Qur'an seems to be based on literary merit? The Qur'an (in the original Arabic) is a literary work beyond mere human construction? (Whereas, yeah, the xian Scriptures often tend to be kinda ROUGH literary works.)

I THINK this is what you're saying, but you might wanna clarify for both my and KR's sake here.....
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

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sgttomas
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:19 pm

met wrote:I THINK this is what you're saying, but you might wanna clarify for both my and KR's sake here.....
Correct, that's the distinction I'm making.

-sgtt
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

Kane Augustus
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by Kane Augustus » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:42 pm

I'd like a demonstration of how the Qur'an is beyond mere human construction, please.

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sgttomas
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:48 pm

Do you know Arabic?
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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