KJV or NIV?

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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KR Wordgazer
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Re: KJV or NIV?

Post by KR Wordgazer » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:03 pm

Sgt, I hardly know what to say to this. There are various sects of Christianity which also teach that Christianity is a religion of heirarchy and authority structures. I do not believe this was Christ's intent. I believe he taught a better way, a way of "not so among you, but whoever wishes to be great shall be the servant of all." When I look at the life and teachings of Jesus I see a radical affirmation of the full equality of women, although expressed in a culture that denigrated them. I see a repudiation of a way of life based on who is in authority over whom. I see a teaching that God is our Father, Christ the Eldest Brother, and the rest of us equal siblings, and that none of us is to assert status or privilege or rule over anyone else. Christian leadership, as I understand it, is about service, not rule. I believe that Christianity teaches that male rule over the female is part of the structures of the fallen social order of this world, to be accommodated when it was necessary, but ultimately to be done away with in the New Creation which is coming and has now come, and in which Christians are to learn to walk.

So it is Jesus whom I will follow. If Islam is, absolutely and not just by some interpretations, a religion of heirarchy and structures of authority, this one over that one and that one over the other-- then my heart does not lead me to Islam. In any event, I would consider it disloyal to my Savior to follow another Prophet or emulate another life than that of Jesus of Nazareth. If your religion is "the" right one, then Allah will have mercy on me, I'm sure, for I'm doing the best I can with the understanding I have. But I have made a commitment to follow Jesus and Jesus alone, and I will not turn back on my word and my pledge, given in baptism publically before all.
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Re: KJV or NIV?

Post by sgttomas » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:33 pm

KR, I really feel for you. I know what a dutiful servant you are to all the brothers and sisters of God. I know how ugly Muslims have made this religion. I can't apologize for them, but I can feel sympathy for the struggle to overcome what they have done in the name of ALLAH. I fear for them on the Day of Requital. I'm just trying to reach you on a heart level. We aren't hearing one another at that level yet.
KR Wordgazer wrote:Sgt, I hardly know what to say to this. I see a repudiation of a way of life based on who is in authority over whom. I see a teaching that God is our Father, Christ the Eldest Brother, and the rest of us equal siblings, and that none of us is to assert status or privilege or rule over anyone else.
If I recall correctly, you work on recovery programs for women from abusive Christian households. I'm also working with a community group to establish a women's shelter, community centre, and counselling service. I don't do this despite being a Muslim, but because I am a Muslim. Muslims love one another, male and female. When one of us suffers we all suffer (and yes this applies to all of humanity as well, I'm just focusing on the particular). This isn't a moral development from personal consciousness - though it must become that - it is a Prophetic teaching. I appreciate that this is a very heartfelt topic for you. That isn't an insult. Nor have I contradicted what you said here. I think I affirm this idea of yours to a great, if not full, extent. I will just repost what I said in a way that mimics your reply here.

- - - - - - -
You said, " I believe that Christianity teaches that male rule over the female is part of the structures of the fallen social order of this world, to be accommodated when it was necessary, but ultimately to be done away with"

I said:
- I don't think we can just look at that verse and say that it is just about abusive husbands; it's also about abusive wives.
- The shariah sets a bare-minimum standard for us, while emulation of the Prophet's noble character, may ALLAH bless him and grant him peace, is what we aspire to, because this is the condition of having a heart that is most pleasing to ALLAH, and is the greatest emulation of His Exalted characteristics, Glorious and Exalted is He. We have for us those who marry for...the most base reasons, but...we have desires and Islam gives us valid ways of satisfying them. As this marriage is a marriage of convenience, and not principles, let alone love, there is a hierarchy of wills that becomes established. How do you regulate out this from human behaviour? You can set all the laws you want and it will still happen. Instead, the shariah acknowledges the situation but gives regulations for the behaviour that have a better chance at regulating the behaviour, more so than appeals to love. The higher principles are taught and emphasized and given priority at every opportunity, but there is a fall-back to a bare minimum standard that regulates a step-by-step approach to minimize the damage done by either party. And further, there is an encouragement to seek intervention once this basic process isn't working, and to separate with good terms between one another if it becomes apparent that the relationship isn't tenable, with a legal framework established for who has the right to seek separation and under what terms.
- This is the accommodation for the human reality, while inclining one to better behaviour, and all the time making the appeal to aspire to love.

I want to add: You admit that there are bad marriages. Do you not intercede in those marriages and perform tasks of either counselling/intervention/mediation, or else assist in the dissolution of the marriage? That's what Islam teaches. It goes the extra step of establishing principles that try to effect a change that diminishes the effect of bad marriages and maybe saves one or two of them before it gets to the point of counselling. Most marriages that have reached that point are doomed to failure or misery anyways. Some get better. Islam has the step of counselling too. Women and men both abuse one another in relationships. It isn't often talked about, for whatever reason, I'm not going to speculate, but women abuse men too.

- - - - - - -
You said, "There are various sects of Christianity which also teach that Christianity is a religion of heirarchy and authority structures. I do not believe this was Christ's intent. I believe he taught a better way, a way of "not so among you, but whoever wishes to be great shall be the servant of all."

I said:

- I have been sent for the perfection of good conduct
- Shall I not inform you about the person who is forbidden from the Fire and for whom the Fire is forbidden? Anyone who is close to people, soft and lenient
- The one with the smallest trace of pride shall not enter Paradise
- The powerful is not he who knocks down others; undoubtedly the powerful is the one who controls himself in a fit of anger
- Whoever is deprived of kindness is deprived of all good

I want to add:
- Don't nurse grudge and don't bid him out for raising the price and don't nurse aversion or enmity and don't enter into a transaction when the others have entered into that transaction and be as fellow-brothers and servants of Allah. A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim. He neither oppresses him nor humiliates him nor looks down upon him. The piety is here, (and while saying so) he pointed towards his chest thrice. It is a serious evil for a Muslim that he should look down upon his brother Muslim. All things of a Muslim are inviolable for his brother in faith: his blood, his wealth and his honour.. (the connotation of "brothers" is the familiar masculine noun-form denoting both men and women)

- Whatever ye are given (here) is (but) a convenience of this Life: but that which is with Allah is better and more lasting: (it is) for those who believe and put their trust in their Lord; (36) Those who avoid the greater crimes and shameful deeds, and, when they are angry even then forgive; (37) Those who harken to their Lord, and establish regular prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance;

- - - - - - -
You said, "When I look at the life and teachings of Jesus I see a radical affirmation of the full equality of women, although expressed in a culture that denigrated them."

I said:
- No one was more of a fundamentalist Muslim than the Beloved of ALLAH, the Prophet Muhammad, may ALLAH send peace and blessings upon him and his family. A Muslim is required to strive to acquire his character... I consider myself a fundamentalist
- The most perfect in faith is one who has the best manners; and the best of you are those who are best to their wives.
- I love ALLAH and the Prophet
- I love my wife and she loves me.
- My wife and I aspire to be good Muslims and that we accommodate each other in an equitable manner
- Our marriage is a happy one

I want to add:
- ALLAH says: Verily I have made oppression unlawful for Me and for My servants too, so do not commit oppression. My servants, all of you are liable to err except one whom I guide on the right path, so seek right guidance from Me so that I should direct you to the right path. O My servants, all of you are hungry (needy) except one whom I feed, so beg food from Me, so that I may give that to you. O My servants, all of you are naked (need clothes) except one whom I provide garments, so beg clothes from Me, so that I should clothe you. O My servants, you commit error night and day and I am there to pardon your sins, so beg pardon from Me so that I should grant you pardon. O My servants, you can neither do Me any harm nor can you do Me any good. O My servants, even if the first amongst you and the last amongst you and even the whole of human race of yours, and that of jinns even, become (equal in) God-conscious like the heart of a single person amongst you, nothing would add to My Power. O My servants, even if the first amongst you and the last amongst you and the whole human race of yours and that of the Jinns too in unison become the most wicked (all beating) like the heart of a single person, it would cause no loss to My Power. O My servants, even if the first amongst you and the last amongst you and the whole human race of yours and that of jinns also all stand in one plain ground and you ask Me and I confer upon every person what he asks for, it would not. in any way, cause any loss to Me (even less) than that which is caused to the ocean by dipping the needle in it. My servants, these for you I shall reward you for thern, so he who deeds of yours which I am recording finds good should praise Allah and he who does not find that should not blame anyone but his ownself. Sa'id said that when Abu Idris Khaulini narrated this hadith he knelt upon his knees. (this makes no distinction between men and women)

- And recite what is rehearsed to you in your homes, of the Signs of Allah and His wisdom: for Allah understands the finest mysteries and is well-acquainted (with them). (34) For Muslim men and women― for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves) for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise― for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward. (35) It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger, to have any option about their decision: if anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.

- Verily, Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, would say on the Day of Resurrection: O son of Adam, I was sick but you did not visit Me. He would say: O my Lord; how could I visit Thee whereas Thou art the Lord of the worlds? Thereupon He would say: Didn't you know that such and such servant of Mine was sick but you did not visit him and were you not aware of this that if you had visited him, you would have found Me by him? O son of Adam, I asked food from you but you did not feed Me. He would say: My Lord, how could I feed Thee whereas Thou art the Lord of the worlds? He said: Didn't you know that such and such servant of Mine asked food from you but you did not feed him, and were you not aware that if you had fed him you would have found him by My side? (The Lord would again say: ) O son of Adam, I asked drink from you but you did not provide Me. He would say: My Lord, how could I provide Thee whereas Thou art the Lord of the worlds? Thereupon He would say: Such and such of servant of Mine asked you for a drink but you did not provide him, and had you provided him drink you would have found him near Me.

-'A'isha said in connection with the words of Allah:" They ask thee the religious verdict about women, say: Allah gives you the verdict about them" (iv. 126), that these relate to an orphan girl who is in charge of the person and she shares with him in his property (as a heir) even in the date-palm trees and he is reluctant to give her hand in marriage to any other person lest he (her husband) should partake of his property, and thus keep her in a lingering state.

- - - - - - -
You said, " Christian leadership, as I understand it, is about service, not rule. I believe that Christianity teaches that male rule over the female is part of the structures of the fallen social order of this world, to be accommodated when it was necessary, but ultimately to be done away with in the New Creation which is coming and has now come, and in which Christians are to learn to walk. "

I said:
- All I know of this religion is the highest principle of love, and a program for eliminating my pride and controlling my base desires - channeling them into worship of ALLAH. I love my wife and she loves me. The Prophet loved his wives and they loved him. Some men don't love their wives, but they want their wives all the same. Some women don't love their husbands, but they want their husbands all the same.
- This is what I know of Islam. It meets you where you are and gives you a way to become better by working with your nature before overcoming it.

I want to add:
- As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur― (5) A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance. (6) They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. (7) And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan and the captive― (8) (Saying) "We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks. (9)
- 'A'isha, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: 'A'isha, verily Allah is kind and He loves kindness and confers upon kindness which he does not confer upon severity and does not confer upon anything else besides it (kindness).
KR Wordgazer wrote:So it is Jesus whom I will follow. If Islam is, absolutely and not just by some interpretations, a religion of heirarchy and structures of authority, this one over that one and that one over the other-- then my heart does not lead me to Islam. In any event, I would consider it disloyal to my Savior to follow another Prophet or emulate another life than that of Jesus of Nazareth. If your religion is "the" right one, then Allah will have mercy on me, I'm sure, for I'm doing the best I can with the understanding I have. But I have made a commitment to follow Jesus and Jesus alone, and I will not turn back on my word and my pledge, given in baptism publically before all.
I hope I wasn't overwhelming the amount of material I presented. I can appreciate you have a lot of barriers and stereotypes to overcome, and that I'm not a very good Muslim, and that I can only do so much through this internet forum to convey real Islam to you.

I have never felt I was disloyal to Jesus. I can honestly tell you that I have found the very fulfillment of the love of Jesus in this religion, Islam.

And you should know that it is not Jesus who saves you, but it is ALLAH who is Most Gracious, Merciful, Forgiving, Loving, Intimately Aware, and Near to His servants. You should not commit to follow what you did in the past, nor what you did before people, but what is righteous and true. I know you believe you are following what is righteous and true. Indeed, you are a person whose heart I aspire to become more like. Truthfully. What you know of Jesus as your Saviour is speculation, not fact. ALLAH has revealed to you a book in truth, confirming what came before it in truth, and correcting what was altered. You can know Him as initmately as you know Jesus - indeed, there is no need to consider that you will lose anything. Truly, Jesus the son of Mary reveals ALLAH to us, and love of Jesus is love of ALLAH. You have nothing to lose; no betrayal is required.

Lovingly yours,
-Ryan
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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KR Wordgazer
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Re: KJV or NIV?

Post by KR Wordgazer » Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:38 am

Sgt,

I think it's very interesting to talk about how Islam compares with Christianity, especially on these issues that are dear to my heart. And I appreciate your kind words. But it's only fair to tell you I have no intention of ceasing to trust in Jesus as my Savior, or of converting to Islam. Accordingly, I think it would be appropriate if your posts were a little less-- shall we say evangelistic? -- in tone. Thanks for your consideration. :D
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Kane Augustus
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Re: KJV or NIV?

Post by Kane Augustus » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:49 pm

ESV. Retains a lot of the literary quality of the KJV, and is still easy to understand like the NIV.

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KR Wordgazer
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Re: KJV or NIV?

Post by KR Wordgazer » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:04 pm

The ESV has its good points, but tends to translate in such a way as to uphold gender heirarchy in the church.
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Kane Augustus
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Re: KJV or NIV?

Post by Kane Augustus » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:28 pm

KR Wordgazer wrote:The ESV has its good points, but tends to translate in such a way as to uphold gender heirarchy in the church.
You are most likely right. And it wouldn't really be surprising given Christianity's patriarchal history.

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Re: KJV or NIV?

Post by Metacrock » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:06 am

Kane Augustus wrote:
KR Wordgazer wrote:The ESV has its good points, but tends to translate in such a way as to uphold gender heirarchy in the church.
You are most likely right. And it wouldn't really be surprising given Christianity's patriarchal history.
Yes but they have that new NIV that takes into account the real meaning of anthropos and doesn't always translate it "man." NIV is my favorite anyway.
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