Were You Created to Be Tortured Forever?

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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unred typo
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Were You Created to Be Tortured Forever?

Post by unred typo » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:28 pm

Hei all!
Wut? No welcome wagon?
It’s been a while since I posted other than a little board I got settled into and dumped on one too many times. Then I went to another site where it was required that you get 100 posts before you could write to any of the interesting controversial places, so I blitzed out 100 trivials with resounding approval that really amazed me and then I tried unsuccessfully to get anything serious discussed without inciting negative responses from the Mods, even though I was completely benign. I was so sweet, in fact, I made myself nauseous. Does anyone here do the traditional arguments about hell? Well, let's see.

This is the post I wrote:
Awww, we’ve been shut down in the Seeker’s Lounge for being potentially inharmonious and divisive in a topic designated as lending itself to excessive controversy, inappropriate with the forum decorum. I thought we were doing so good too. As you can see from the post below, there was virtually no blood shed, but we can continue here and not ruffle any feathers. I changed the title to something a little more controversial, befitting this new location but be nice and nobody loses an eye. :roll:
Sion wrote:
God created some for honor and some for dishonor. The devil will curse God, as unjust, even as he is being thrown into the lake of fire. Everyone who is written in the Lambs book of life will make it there into Gods kingdom. But Christ only died for His friends. So the true answer to your question is "which one were you created for?" find your place with God while the door is still opened. There comes a time when the Lord stands up and closes the door. When you die, and a time when the door is closed and no one else can get in.

John 15
13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
The greatest love a person can show is to give his life for another. But let’s not make this a limited statement. How about this: Jesus was not a man doing the greatest thing a man can do for his friends, he even died for his enemies. How much greater is that love? Limitless.

By saying God created some for dishonor and some for honor in this context of hell, are you suggesting that God created some for hell and some for heaven? I hope not, because that’s not what it says. Even the devil was created an anointing cherub with music built right into his innards. An amazing creature. Hell was created for him and his followers, he was not created for hell, btw. I hope you will agree here.
:mrgreen:
Last edited by unred typo on Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
The truth will stand with you but man-made doctrines will melt away like cowards in the battle.

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Re: How Many Here Were Created For Hell?

Post by dumernmud » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:55 pm

Hello unred,
Even the devil was created an anointing cherub with music built right into his innards. An amazing creature.
Interesting comment, I've never heard this before. Where does this idea come from?

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Re: How Many Here Were Created For Hell?

Post by unred typo » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:43 pm

That was a quick reply. And I wasn't sure I could remember enough words to find the verses but YAY...I found it! Ezekiel 28, but it doesn't call him Satan but the king of Tyrus. You have to read around to understand that this is the one and the same Satan (but I'm not going to insist on that if anyone knows otherwise and can back it up. :mrgreen: )
12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus says the Lord GOD; You seal up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13You were in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of your tabrets and of your pipes was prepared in you in the day that you were created. ( sounds like a walking jewel studded pipe organ 8-) )

14You are the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were upon the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you.

16By the multitude of your merchandise they have filled the midst of you with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness: I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, that they may behold you.

18You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold you.
You could check out Isaiah 14:12-15 too.
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Re: How Many Here Were Created For Hell?

Post by Metacrock » Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:55 pm

both you guys, welcome. you are welcome to post here. I never believed in ranking posters. everyone is on an equal plain in terms of privileges to post.

I don't believe in hell. I feel that the Bible doesn't actually teach that hell is a place of eternal conscious torment. what do you think?
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Re: How Many Here Were Created For Hell?

Post by unred typo » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:12 pm

Nothing set in brimstone, but I rather do think there is such a place. I'm not opposed to finding out differently, but until I do, put me down for a believer. I tend to be the rather annoying literalist about the Bible but I'm not KJV only and I wouldn't even be shocked and hang myself if there were shown to be errors, omissions or additions to the text.
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Re: How Many Here Were Created For Hell?

Post by Metacrock » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:34 am

unred typo wrote:Nothing set in brimstone, but I rather do think there is such a place. I'm not opposed to finding out differently, but until I do, put me down for a believer. I tend to be the rather annoying literalist about the Bible but I'm not KJV only and I wouldn't even be shocked and hang myself if there were shown to be errors, omissions or additions to the text.

I believe in Jesus. I think we are saved from something, just not that. From being "lost" in this life. I see hell as a symbol of spiritual death and judgement. but I think the real penalty is annihilation.
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Re: How Many Here Were Created For Hell?

Post by unred typo » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:24 am

That’s ok with me. I tentatively believe the fire and torment are eternal for holding the eternal beings that cannot be rehabilitated nor destroyed, but humans are not in that category since they were prohibited from eating of the tree of life way back in the Eden days. The only ones who have to worry are those who have tasted of the heavenly gift and turned back to wallowing in sin, I‘m guessing here. If they have received eternal life, they better be repenting because if you have eternal life already, and you don’t pass the judgment of your works, the only option seems to be eternal death/separation from God/good/light/comfort/peace,etc. :( :arrow: :o
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Re: How Many Here Were Created For Hell?

Post by Metacrock » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:02 am

OK I see. I find that hell is almost always discussed in either figurative or symbolic contexts. There is no sustained developed detailed view of it set forth in expository context in the NT. Its not in the OT>
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Re: How Many Here Were Created For Hell?

Post by Diaconeo » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:25 pm

Hey all,

I believe that the Questions for this thread is the wrong question. I believe that is should be For Whom was Hell Created?

Before I deal with the question at hand, I'd like to look at the term 'Hell'. Hell is used to refer to two different places, so I believe that we need a common definition of Hell. In the Old Testament, Hell is referred to as Sheol, a place for the wicked to dwell after death, a holding place if you will, until Judgement. The other place of holding for the righteous is referred to as Abraham's Bossum. Jesus referred to both in His discussion of Lazurus and the Rich Man. Lazurus was in Abraham's Bossum while the Rich Man was in Sheol. Jesus said that there is a 'large rift' between the two, but we can see from the discription of the two, that those in Sheol can see that those who are in Abraham's Bossum are in a state of bliss while those who are not are in a state of torment (which could simply be a statement opposite of bliss).

In the New Testament, Hell is used to translate Gehenna (or perhaps Gehennom) which was a place outside of the walls of Jerusalem where the trash from the city was burned. It appears that is was always burining from Jesus' discription of it. It was a place that would have been vivid in the minds of His followers as to what was in store for the wicked after death. Another NT term that is translated Hell is the Greek Hades. This is mostly a Greek reference to Sheol, meaning the Grave. Now we know from Greek mythology that Hades is both the name of the place and the name of the god who ruled the underword, or afterlife. It was just a common reference for the Grave but could also mean the place where the dead was judged to determine wehter the soul would be tormented or allowed to enter into bliss based on his deeds while living.

In all, Sheol, Hades and Grave refer to the same place. It is argued wether or not Gehenna is also refering simply to the grave, or if it in fact refers to the Lake of Fire (where their worm buns constantly). Most conservative theologians would side with the consept that Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place, while most liberal theologians would hold to the concept that Gehenna refers to the same place as Hades and not the Lake of Fire.

There is yet a third reference for Hell, and that is the Lake of Fire in Revelation 20. This is the place that was created for the Devil and his angels. Most people, when they refer to Hell are really talking about this place, the Lake of Fire. It is a common mistake, but it is also accepted that they mean the same among most people, particularly non-believers. It is to this place that the Thread title I assume refers, and not to the Grave.

John tells us in no uncertain words, that Man was not created for this place, nor was this place created for Man. The Lake of Fire was, if fact, created Devil and his angels (commonly referred to as demons or devils). Through the revelation that was giving to John learn, however that Man will share in the torment of this place with the Devil and the demons. It is a place of eternal torment. Wether this torment is literal eternal torture or simply torment from being away from the presence of God, I will leave for a different discussion.

Getting back to the Question at hand, or rather the correct Question, I believe that all who do not place their faith in Jesus Christ will end up in the Lake of Fire. I cannot say or even guess at how many that would be, but from Revelation 20 it would appear that it is a multitude. Also, if we go with the teaching that the way to life is narrow, meaning that few travel it, we can conclude that there are more souls destined for the Lake of Fire than for Eternal Life with Christ in the Jerusalem (which is part of the New Heavens and the New Earth).

Blessings in Christ,

Matthew

P.S. I just read the latest post by Metacrock and realized I forgot to add my OT reference for eternal punishment and reward. This is found In Dan. 12:2. "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

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Re: How Many Here Were Created For Hell?

Post by unred typo » Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:29 pm

Metacrock wrote:OK I see. I find that hell is almost always discussed in either figurative or symbolic contexts. There is no sustained developed detailed view of it set forth in expository context in the NT. Its not in the OT>
(That reminds me, I have broken my rule not to post here until I could use ‘numinous’ in a sentence. Let me fix that right now.)

That‘s because you hang with all the esoteric, numinous types. When I hear it discussed, usually you can feel the cinders landing on back of your neck. I don’t know where Jesus got all his material from. Do you think he made it up? :idea: Maybe some key pieces of the scriptures have gone missing. *insert 4 note mystery suspense musical interlude smilie*
The truth will stand with you but man-made doctrines will melt away like cowards in the battle.

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