Were You Created to Be Tortured Forever?

[Hazard]

Thanks mate.

Haz.

[Metacrock]

it seems to be mostly taken from JKV just randomly lifted sentences. translated and published in Salt Lake was it mormon?

[Hazard]

it seems to be mostly taken from JKV just randomly lifted sentences. translated and published in Salt Lake was it mormon?

Hi Metacrock. Are you refering in the above quote to what I have posted so far mate?

If so, have nothing to do with Mormonism and never ever have. I know of them, but know nothing about them or their beliefs and really don't want to know? Actually, I cannot stand any churches which are led by men and their doctrins. I was badly burnt in the distant past. I am self taught so to speak and definately non-denominational. I dont attend any church either, ever, well not since I was indoctrinated as a child. I believe I am a child of God and a member of His body, His church.
Regards,

Haz.

[unred typo]

it seems to be mostly taken from JKV just randomly lifted sentences. translated and published in Salt Lake was it mormon?

I don't think it is. Don't take my word for it.

it seems to be mostly taken from JKV just randomly lifted sentences. translated and published in Salt Lake was it mormon?

I highly doubt it is but don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself and see if God speaks to you through it. If you're afraid, do what I did and read it side by side with the Bible. I made a time line from it and I was amazed at how accurate it was and when I finished adding and comparing, I came up with the same date for creation that Jewish people have and the same time from creation forward.
Here is a recommendation that I found:

The Authentic Annals Of The Early Hebrews -
Is It The "Real" Book of Jasher?
It is understandable that some may feel that it is impossible or unlikely that this volume
could really be the original book of Jasher.
The issue is compounded by the existence of several works by the name Sefer
Hayasher. I have in my possession a copy of Sefer Hayasher - The Book Of The
Righteous, edited and translated by Seymour J. Cohen. It is clearly not a book of history,
but an ethical text that was probably written in the 13th century. Its introduction cites
several other "Books of Jasher", some of which are no longer known to be in existence,
such as that by Zerahiah Ha-Yevani of the 13th century. There is also known to have
been one written by Rabbi Jacob ben Mier of the 12th century, and one by Rabbi Jonah
ben Abraham of Gerona of the 14th century. We are told of a work by that title from the
Amoraim period (3rd to 6th centuries) that is characterized as containing "for the most
part sayings of the sages of the first and second centuries". So, this title has been a
popular one for rabbinical writings, but most are clearly not intended to have been
passed off as the book mentioned in the Bible. There is one notable exception which
I will mention later.
The first step in dealing with the question of authenticity is to simply read the book with
an open mind. One cannot effectively investigate the matter unless he is familiar with
it. After all, according to Solomon, "He who answers a matter before he hears it, It is
folly and shame to him". (Proverbs 18:13). The reader will find that it reads very much
like the Bible, except that many passages are replete with details that are not recorded
in the Bible.
There are digressions from the biblical narrative that show concurrent events in other
parts of the world. There are chapters dealing wholly with events in Egypt or events in
Europe. Much of this material can be recognized from other works of ancient history.
To anyone familiar with ancient history, it will be obvious that Jasher places these events
in a radically different time period than do conventional historians. To be sure, if Jasher
be true, there needs to be a radical alteration in the conventional interpretation of ancient
history, especially in the area of chronology.
There is little of consequence at variance with the Bible. There are some chronological
features that differ, but these can usually be attributed to a textual error. Usually the
error will be resolved by reading on. A later entry will fall into harmony with the Bible
text. Remember that the ancient scrolls of this book were in poor condition when the
book was printed in Hebrew in 1613. It is not unlikely that some numbers could get
scrambled.
There are a couple mysterious accounts of incidents that smack of Greek or Roman
mythology, such as the story of Zepho, the grandson of Esau who slew a half human
monster in a large cave. This account is easily recognized as the same story as that of
Theseus, who slew the minotaur. The characters and the setting are different. A critical
reader may object to this material, but many valid explanations are possible concerning
why this and other such events were recorded in this book. The original author may
have simply reported those things because they were popular folklore of his day. Such
stories are merely mentioned in passing and no significance is attached to them.
Though one might doubt the veracity of these tales, there is nothing here that should
dissuade an objective reader from the opinion that this book is genuine.
Even the most casual reader will find Jasher enlightening. Accounts in the Bible can be
made more lucid and easier to understand with the background of Jasher in mind.
The next issue to investigate in regard to the authenticity of this book is the two
passages which mention the book by name. The first is Joshua 10.12-13:
"... and he [Joshua] said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon;
and thou, moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon
stayed, until the people avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is it not written
in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted
not to go down about a whole day. And there was no day like that before it or
after it, that the Lord hearkened to the voice of man: for the Lord fought for Israel."

And now compare it with the following passage in Jasher 88.63-64:
"...and Joshua said in the sight of all the people, Sun, stand thou still upon
Gibeon, and thou moon in the valley of Ajalon, until the nation shall have
revenged itself upon its enemies... And the sun stood still in the midst of the
heavens, and it stood still six and thirty moments, and the moon also stood still
and hastened not to go down a whole day. And there was no day like that before
it or after it, that the Lord hearkened to the voice of man, for the Lord fought for
Israel."
A comparison of the text preceding also shows a high degree of correlation, indicating
that much more than a couple of verses was probably quoted by the Bible writer.
A second mention of the Book of Jasher occurs in II Samuel 1.17. In contrast, this
incident is not a direct quotation of a historical event from Jasher, as is the case in
Joshua. Jasher's narrative ends long before the time of David. However, as part of his
lamentation over the death of Saul and Jonathan, David referred to a comment by Jacob
that is quoted in the Book of Jasher. He said:
"Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: Behold it is
written in the book of Jasher."
David is referring to the dying words of Jacob to Judah in Jasher 56:9,
"...only teach thy sons the use of the bow and all weapons of war, in order that
they may fight the battles of their brother who will rule over his enemies."
This passage in the Bible has no reference to anything in the Bible itself, but it is made
clear from the passage in Jasher.
While the above two references pass the test, it will be up to the reader to satisfy himself
as to the general agreement of the entirety of the book with the Bible narrative. This is
such an extensive comparison, and such an obvious one, that I will not attempt to make
any verse by verse comparison. Certainly any reader who is familiar with the Bible will
recognize its similarity to the text of Jasher.
There probably is no way that we can know that the Biblical writer(s) quoted from this
book, rather than the other way around? Is it possible that this book was reverse
engineered? Perhaps that Book of Jasher from the Amoraim period was compiled from
rabbinic sources such that it is a kind of digest of rabbinic traditions. Indeed, there is
a great deal of commonality with accounts from other midrashic sources. If this were
found to be so it would in no way diminish its value.
Is it possible that someone created this book as a clever fraud, by appropriating the
name of the Biblical Jasher to give the work credibility? There are, of course, many
examples of such pious counterfeits from the early new testament period. Could
someone have fabricated this book by incorporating a huge number of additional details
into the framework of Bible stories, and do it with such accuracy as to be convincing?
It is remotely conceivable that some writer of the rabbinical period could have gathered
a vast array of those stories, as are common in rabbinical writings, and incorporated
them into this work in a framework to, in some way, add credibility to the stories. But
such a scenario seems very unlikely, since rabbinical writings have a great deal of
credibility otherwise, and no major effort of promoting this book for that purpose has
ever occurred. It is hard to imagine that this book would be counterfeited for that
purpose or any other. There is simply no motive for such an act. In any case, if this
were true, it is such a masterful job as to be a very valuable work in it's own right. The
accuracy and credibility of this supposed Pseudo-Jasher is absolute genius. If this be
a forgery it is a marvelous one.
Such a fraudulent writer would not have needed to add so much detail into the account
to be convincing. The more details he drew from his imagination, the greater his
chances of making some glaring error that would give away his deception. A faker
would certainly have written a much shorter work and left out unnecessary details.
In actuality, we have a wonderful example of just such a fraud. I have in my possession
three different works that go by the title Sepher Hayasher or The Book of Jasher. This
first is, of course, this book. The second is the 13th century ethical treatise that I
mentioned earlier. It makes no claim to being the Biblical Jasher and would never be
taken for it. The third book is widely recognized for the fraud that it is. It has been
republished by the Rosicrucian Order. It claims to have been discovered by Flaccus
Albinus Alcuinus, Abbot of Canterbury in the 8th century, while on a pilgrimage. It is the
briefest outline of the first six books of the Bible, consisting of about 70 pages of large
print. It contains no useful details, and only the barest account of the familiar Hebrew
stories. It seems to have been prepared hastily and with little attention to detail. The
most obvious feature is that it claims to be the work of a man named Jasher who was
the son of Caleb and one of the Judges of Israel. This seems to be its entire reason for
existence. It is clear that the author had no real knowledge of Hebrew and failed to
recognize that Jasher is not a proper noun. It is not anybody's name. It rather carries
the meaning of the upright book or the faithful record. Clearly this book is a fake. It has
all the characteristics that you would expect to see in a forgery. It is very brief and
contains no unique information except the one thing that is so absurd as to expose it as
a hoax. So the contrast between that imitation and this book is very telling. It is easy
to see which is genuine.
Finally, consider how Josephus described the Book of Jasher. He said "by this book
are to be understood certain records kept in some safe place on purpose, giving an
account of what happened among the Hebrews from year to year, and called Jasher or
the upright, on account of the fidelity of the annals. * " There could be no better
description of the book you see before you. The bottom line is that you, as the reader,
will have to answer the question of legitimacy for yourself. Whichever side of that issue
you take, I think that you will be enlightened by exploring the issue and by reading the
book. If you feel as I do, that this book has the powerful credentials to commend it as
the biblical Book of Jasher, you will now have in your hands an additional source to
investigate when studying the Bible. You will also have much food for thought in regard
to the issues of conventional chronology in ancient times.
* This statement from Josephus is copied from M.M. Noah's preface to his new translation of the Book of Jasher.
He does not cite which work of Josephus or any other details that would be helpful in verifying it. Further, he
does not tell which version of Josephus he was quoting. I have been unable to find this statement in Whiston's
translation, but there are other versions in existence such as the Slavonic Josephus which contains differing readings.
Therefore I am only taking at face value what Mr. Noah quoted.
(c)Copyright 1997 by Wayne Simpson
Distributed by Biblical Research Foundation
629 Lexington Road
Sapulpa, OK 74066
Reproduction and distribution are permissible provided this copyright notice remains intact on all copies.

[unred typo]

it seems to be mostly taken from JKV just randomly lifted sentences. translated and published in Salt Lake was it mormon?

The link I gave you is just a listing of the chapters and a brief outline of what's in it. You have to click on each one to read the entire chapter.

[Hazard]

I wrote;

"Hebrews 11:13 to 16 speaks of people who have died in the faith, who were strangers and pilgrims on the earth, seeking a better country, "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

.

This better country is Heaven. Scriptures teaches that Heaven is a created place, it is a planet, just like Earth way off out in the Northern part of the Universe. So far away we cannot see it. How do we know this? Scriptures teaches that; "For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another" (Psalms 75:6-7). If promotion comes not from the east, west, or south, it comes from God, from the North!
Scripture also teaches Lucifer led a rebellion into the sides of the North! "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:" (Isa. 14:13).
And;
""Therefore rejoice ye HEAVENS [Plural], and ye that dewll IN THEM" (Rev. 12:12). There are three heavens spoken of in Scripture beside the one of the three where God now lives.


God is in Heaven, Jesus sits at His right hand, we pray that God's will, will be done here on this Earth, "as it is done in Heaven." And it will soon be that way. There are many things in Heaven that are here on the Earth as dozens of Scriptures teach. I can put them up if you-all are interested in reading them?

Haz.

[unred typo]

I wrote;

"Hebrews 11:13 to 16 speaks of people who have died in the faith, who were strangers and pilgrims on the earth, seeking a better country, "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

.

This better country is Heaven. Scriptures teaches that Heaven is a created place, it is a planet, just like Earth way off out in the Northern part of the Universe. So far away we cannot see it. How do we know this? Scriptures teaches that; "For promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another" (Psalms 75:6-7). If promotion comes not from the east, west, or south, it comes from God, from the North!
Scripture also teaches Lucifer led a rebellion into the sides of the North! "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:" (Isa. 14:13).
And;
""Therefore rejoice ye HEAVENS [Plural], and ye that dewll IN THEM" (Rev. 12:12). There are three heavens spoken of in Scripture beside the one of the three where God now lives.


God is in Heaven, Jesus sits at His right hand, we pray that God's will, will be done here on this Earth, "as it is done in Heaven." And it will soon be that way. There are many things in Heaven that are here on the Earth as dozens of Scriptures teach. I can put them up if you-all are interested in reading them?

Haz.

Cool. *insert thumbsup smilie*

[Hazard]

unred wrote

"Cool. *insert thumbsup smilie*"

.

I take this to mean go ahead and show us Scriptures supporting Heaven being a planet. I have been laughed of other boards for this so I have developed a pretty thick skin over the years and I dont mind if others dont see it as I do.

We were not created for eternal torture, we were created to spend eternity with God, moving from galaxy to galaxy, planet to panet, as the population of the earth swells to untold billions for eternity. Heaven is only one place and is where God now lives. He will set up His throne on the Earth in the future.

HEAVEN IS A CREATED PLACE.

(Gen. 1:1; Isa.42:5: 45:18; Col.1:16-18: Neh.9:6; Ps. 102:25; Prov.8:27).

IT IS A REAL PLANET LIKE EARTH. (Gen.1:1; Heb.11:8-16). In this last passage it is called a "BETTER COUNTRY" than the earth. Heaven, therefore, is not an invisable nothing or a cloud floating in space where saints sit and play Jew's harp forever.

THERE ARE THREE HEAVENS. Besides the planet called Heaven where God dwells (Gen21:17; 22:11, 15: 2 Cor. 12:1-3; Deut. 26:15; 1 Kings 8:30;38, 43, 49) there are two other spheres called Heaven. Paul speaks of three heavens (2 Cor. 12:1-3) The third Heaven here is called the paradise where God lives. The other two heavens are: the clouds (Gen.1:8; 7:23; 8:2; Job 38:9, 34; Isa. 14:14; Jer.51:16) and the starry space between the Earth and the planet Heaven (Gen. 1:15-20; 22:17; Isa.14:12-14; Ps. 8:3).

HEAVEN IS THE CAPITOL OF THE UNIVERSE, for God has His capitol city, the New Jerusalem, His capitol building, the Heavenly Temple or Tabernacle, and His throne in the Temple in Heaven. This city is described by John in Rev.21-22. This capital city will continue to be in Heaven until the end of the Millenium and then it will be moved from the planet Heaven to the planet Earth (Rev.21:2, 9-21). Many Scriptures speak of God's throne being in Heaven. (Ps. 103:19; Rev.4:1-2). That God has a real temple in Heaven is clear from Rev.4-5; 11:19; 14:17; 16:17.

GOD OWNS AND RULES FROM THE HEAVENS OF HEAVENS (Gen. 14:19,22; Ps. 11:4; 89:11; Luke 10:21; 11:2). He also ownes the Earth and all things in the universe, but at present this planet is in rebellion against Him. This is why Jesus will be sent from Heaven with the armies of Heaven to sieze this rebellious part of the universe and restore Gods absolute rule on Earth as before the rebellion started (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:1-21; 20:1-10 Zech. 14; Jude 14; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Joel 3; Matt. 24:29-31; 25:31-46).

THE LOCATION OF HEAVEN IS IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE UNIVERSE. (Isa.14:12-14). In Scripture we are told that Lucifer led a rebellion into Heaven into the sides of the North. In Ps.75:6-7 we are told that promotion comes not from the south, east, or west, but from Lord and therefore from the north.

HEAVEN IS INHABITED (! Kings 22:19; 2 Chron. 18:18; Matt.18:10; 22:30; 24:36; Rev. 12:12; 13:6). Armies and hosts of Heaven are mentioned an number of times as seen in these passages and in Dan. 4:35; Luke 2:13; Rev. 19:14. These inhabitants are listed in part as common angels, archangels, seraphim, cherubim and other spirit beings. Heavenly bodies are mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:48-49. Rejocing in Heaven is referred to by the inhabitants in Heaven (Ps. 96:11; 148:1, 4; Isa.44:23; Rev. 12:12). 8. Paul speaks of "the invisible things" in Heaven as being like the visible things on Earth; that is the things in Heaven are just like the things on Earth. (Rom. 1:20). The word "things" is used in many passages in referring to realities in Heaven. (Phil. 2:10; Col 1:16-20; Heb. 8:12; 9:23). We know from Scripture that in Heaven there are Cities (Rev.21), mansions (John 14:1-3), trees, rivers (Rev.22:1-3), fountains of water (Rev. 7:17), food (Ex.16:4; Ps.78:25: 105:40; John 6:31-51: Luke 22:16, 18, 30; Rev. 2:7, 17: 19:1-10; 22:1-3), animals (2 Kings 2:11-12; 6:13-17; Zech. 1:8-11: 6:1-8; Rev. 19:11-14, 21: Rom. 1:20), furniture tongs (Isa.6:6), fire and coals (Isa. 6:6; Rev.8:5) censer and incense (Rev. 8:4-6), smoke (Rev. 8:4; 15:8), musical instruments (Rev. 5:8; 14:1-5; 15:2-4), clothes (Dan. 7:9; Rev. 1:13; 6:9-11), stones (Rev. 2:17), books (Rev. 3:5; 5:1-7; 10:1-11; 20:11-15), Also mentioned in Scripture are, vials or bowls, crowns, thunderings, lightnings, clouds, lamps, a sea of glass, singing, worship, palm trees, temples, silence, so there must also be noise at other times, trumpets, hail, mountains, keys and chains, measuring sticks, olive trees, the ark of the testament, doors, posts, girdles, pearls, diamonds and other precious stones, walls, gates, gold in abundance, streets, fruits, banquets, and many other inumerable things. If the invisible things in the heavenlies are clearly seen by the things on Earth, as Paul taught in Rom. 1:20, then we have a right to believe that there are in Heaven the same kind of things that we have on Earth. We have no right to make an exception of any good thing that God created and intended for man to have before the fall. Several natural men have gone to Heaven and have come back or will later come back. They are Enoch (Gen.5:22; Heb. 11:5), Elijah (2 Kings 2), Paul (2 Cor. 12:1-4), and John (Rev. 4:1). The first two of these men are still in Heaven living a natural life and will come back as the two witnesses of Zech. 4:11-14; Rev. 11:3-13).
Enoch has been in Heaven over 5,142 years and Elijah has been there over 3,500 years and they are still eating, drinking, and enjoying life on the planet Heaven. If we will understand such statements made above as literal, then the doctrin of the Heavenly world will no longer be a mystery.

[2thePoint]

We were not created for eternal torture, we were created to spend eternity with God, moving from galaxy to galaxy, planet to panet, as the population of the earth swells to untold billions for eternity. Heaven is only one place and is where God now lives. He will set up His throne on the Earth in the future.

We weren't created for eternal torture, but that will happen to many nonetheless. But I believe the earth's population will stop increasing at the end of the Millennium.

...IT IS A REAL PLANET LIKE EARTH. (Gen.1:1; Heb.11:8-16). In this last passage it is called a "BETTER COUNTRY" than the earth. Heaven, therefore, is not an invisable nothing or a cloud floating in space where saints sit and play Jew's harp forever.

I agree heaven is a place, but we really don't have firm evidence that it must be a planet. We're rather limited in our ability to imagine something else.

...The first two of these men are still in Heaven living a natural life and will come back as the two witnesses of Zech. 4:11-14; Rev. 11:3-13).
Enoch has been in Heaven over 5,142 years and Elijah has been there over 3,500 years and they are still eating, drinking, and enjoying life on the planet Heaven. If we will understand such statements made above as literal, then the doctrin of the Heavenly world will no longer be a mystery.

Not many people believe this, but I do. Most insist they will be Moses and Elijah, presumably because those two would represent "the law and the prophets", but the Bible never requires such representation out of them. It always made more sense to me that the witnesses would be the only two who have never physically died.

[Hazard]

Hi mate.

you wrote;

"I agree heaven is a place, but we really don't have firm evidence that it must be a planet. We're rather limited in our ability to imagine something else"

.

This is why I believe it is a planet like the Earth, only pure, no polution, no sickness or sin at all. Its called a better country, and have a look at the things mentioned in Scripture which are in Heaven, things just like we have here on the Earth?

Paul speaks of "the invisible things" in Heaven as being like the visible things on Earth; that is the things in Heaven are just like the things on Earth. (Rom. 1:20). They are only invisible to us because we are not there to see them. Just like the USA is invisible to me here in Aus. I bet If I got on a plane and come over there, every thing in the USA, including the USA itself would become visible to me. The word "things" is used in many passages in referring to realities in Heaven. (Phil. 2:10; Col 1:16-20; Heb. 8:12; 9:23). We know from Scripture that in Heaven there are Cities (Rev.21), mansions (John 14:1-3), trees, rivers (Rev.22:1-3), fountains of water (Rev. 7:17), food (Ex.16:4; Ps.78:25: 105:40; John 6:31-51: Luke 22:16, 18, 30; Rev. 2:7, 17: 19:1-10; 22:1-3), animals (2 Kings 2:11-12; 6:13-17; Zech. 1:8-11: 6:1-8; Rev. 19:11-14, 21: Rom. 1:20), furniture tongs (Isa.6:6), fire and coals (Isa. 6:6; Rev.8:5) censer and incense (Rev. 8:4-6), smoke (Rev. 8:4; 15:8), musical instruments (Rev. 5:8; 14:1-5; 15:2-4), clothes (Dan. 7:9; Rev. 1:13; 6:9-11), stones (Rev. 2:17), books (Rev. 3:5; 5:1-7; 10:1-11; 20:11-15), Also mentioned in Scripture are, vials or bowls, crowns, thunderings, lightnings, clouds, lamps, a sea of glass, singing, worship, palm trees, temples, silence, so there must also be noise at other times, trumpets, hail, mountains, keys and chains, measuring sticks, olive trees, the ark of the testament, doors, posts, girdles, pearls, diamonds and other precious stones, walls, gates, gold in abundance, streets, fruits, banquets, and many other inumerable things. If the invisible things in the heavenlies are clearly seen by the things on Earth, as Paul taught in Rom. 1:20, then we have a right to believe that there are in Heaven the same kind of things that we have on Earth. We have no right to make an exception of any good thing that God created and intended for man to have before the fall.