Were You Created to Be Tortured Forever?
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- KR Wordgazer
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It seems to me, Matthew, that since the Book of Revelation is a book of symbols, the Lake of Fire is most likely symbolic also. I don't think there is going to be a literal Lake of Fire that people are going to be thrown into. I think the Lake of Fire refers to spiritual destruction. While I will grant that the Bible says the LoF is prepared for the devil, and that the devil, the Beast and the False Prophet will be "tormented forever," I don't see anything there that says that humans who suffer the same fate will be "tormented forever." Humans being of a different spiritual kind than the devil and angelic beings, it seems most likely to me that they will not "survive" in the Lake of Fire-- that annihilation, as Metacrock mentioned, is the probable final fate of those who will not come to salvation. As for angelic, spiritual beings, who is to say of what kind their "torment" will be-- but it is surely a spiritual, not a physical, torment. It may refer to a state of eternal frustration, as they are the losers of the battle they have waged against God, and must forever live with that-- and with each other, in the emptiness of their existence without love or joy or anything good.
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Re: Were You Created to Be Tortured Forever?
Wordgazer (et al)
Let's put aside any concept of what 'eternal torment' means. It's not really relevant to my current thought process. It doesn't really matter me what 'eternal torment' really means; whether or not it's literal physical or spiritual torment or a state of eternal 'frustration'. I'm not really concerned with that concept either. What I am more concerned with is not even if the LoF is a literal Lake of Fire.
What I am concerned about is the LoF as a concept, however it may be that we see it. Can we agree that the LoF is eternal and that is was created for the Devil and his angels, and that they will suffer there (by whatever definition) eternally?
Basically:
Do we agree that the concept of the LoF is that it is a place of eternal suffering for the Devil and his angels?
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
Let's put aside any concept of what 'eternal torment' means. It's not really relevant to my current thought process. It doesn't really matter me what 'eternal torment' really means; whether or not it's literal physical or spiritual torment or a state of eternal 'frustration'. I'm not really concerned with that concept either. What I am more concerned with is not even if the LoF is a literal Lake of Fire.
What I am concerned about is the LoF as a concept, however it may be that we see it. Can we agree that the LoF is eternal and that is was created for the Devil and his angels, and that they will suffer there (by whatever definition) eternally?
Basically:
Do we agree that the concept of the LoF is that it is a place of eternal suffering for the Devil and his angels?
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
"Those who go down to the Sea in Ships,
Who do business on Great Waters;
They have seen the Works of the Lord,
And His Wonders in the Deep." Ps. 107:23,24
Who do business on Great Waters;
They have seen the Works of the Lord,
And His Wonders in the Deep." Ps. 107:23,24
Re: Were You Created to Be Tortured Forever?
I have followed this thread in interest, butnot engaged in discussion.
But, I will let Diaconeo know that I happen to accept the Lake of Fire as en Eternal place where the Devil and his Angels will be cast. I likewise accent the fate of Hell for those who so choose to reject Gods ways, and walk in sin.
My theology is roe nuanced, but I do have hthis acceptance.
But, I will let Diaconeo know that I happen to accept the Lake of Fire as en Eternal place where the Devil and his Angels will be cast. I likewise accent the fate of Hell for those who so choose to reject Gods ways, and walk in sin.
My theology is roe nuanced, but I do have hthis acceptance.
- KR Wordgazer
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Re: Were You Created to Be Tortured Forever?
Yes, I would say I agree with that (granting that the word "place" may or may not be the most accurate word to use, but that's beside the point, I think ).Diaconeo wrote:Wordgazer (et al)
Basically:
Do we agree that the concept of the LoF is that it is a place of eternal suffering for the Devil and his angels?
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
Anyway, you and I are in agreement on that.
Kristen
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- unred typo
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Re: Were You Created to Be Tortured Forever?
Sounds right to me. I'm not sure if humans would be annihilated there or continue to suffer there until they are purified or even *ew* suffer eternally. I haven't really made up my feeble mind on this. Maybe it's a good thing not to be so opinioned on everything.... (*insert cop-out smilie*)Diaconeo wrote:Wordgazer (et al)
Let's put aside any concept of what 'eternal torment' means. It's not really relevant to my current thought process. It doesn't really matter me what 'eternal torment' really means; whether or not it's literal physical or spiritual torment or a state of eternal 'frustration'. I'm not really concerned with that concept either. What I am more concerned with is not even if the LoF is a literal Lake of Fire.
What I am concerned about is the LoF as a concept, however it may be that we see it. Can we agree that the LoF is eternal and that is was created for the Devil and his angels, and that they will suffer there (by whatever definition) eternally?
Basically:
Do we agree that the concept of the LoF is that it is a place of eternal suffering for the Devil and his angels?
Blessings in Christ,
Matthew
The truth will stand with you but man-made doctrines will melt away like cowards in the battle.
Re: How Many Here Were Created For Hell?
G'day.Metacrock wrote:both you guys, welcome. you are welcome to post here. I never believed in ranking posters. everyone is on an equal plain in terms of privileges to post.
I don't believe in hell. I feel that the Bible doesn't actually teach that hell is a place of eternal conscious torment. what do you think?
Whats this, post no 4. Sorry had to jump in here and admit I have not read past this post, 'yet.' Regarding Hell, this is what I have found in the Bible regarding that place. I must say this before I go any further. With respect to all here, I am not about converting anyone and I dont give a fart whether someone believes in God, the Bible or not. Thats their own personal choice and as free moral agents people can believe what they like. This is what the Bible says about Hell, at least what i have found. There could be more.
According to Scripture, there are five departments in what is called the underworld of departed Spirits. Not one of these places is associated with or is the grave where bodies are buried, and not one place is called Purgatory, something the latest Pope just recently back-flipped over..
One). Paradise; In Luke 16:19-31; 23:43, we have pictured total comfort and water in this prison because the rich man saw Lazarus afar off in comfort and bliss and asked him to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue (Luke 16:19-31). This was the abode of the righteous souls from Adam after dying and leaving their bodies, being held captive by the devil against their wills till Christ's death and resurrection (Heb. 2:14-15; Eph. 4:7-11). Before Jesus Christ conqured the power of death and Hell, the devil had these powers. (Col. 2:14-17; Heb. 2:14-15; Rev. 1:18).
It was into this prison the repentant thief went with Christ the day they both died (Luke 23:43). This prison is located in the heart of the Earth as is clear from Matt. 12:40 and Eph. 4:7-11. Jesus not only went into this prison but He also went into another prison, "Tartarus," and preached to the fallen angels being held there in their own special prison. Jesus having conqured Hell and death and the grave during His crucifiction and during the three days He was in the underworld, He captured all the righteous souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11). Jesus now has the keys to Hell and death (Rev. 1:18).
Two). Tartarus; This prison is the special prison for the fallen angels that sinned both before and after the flood. There is nothing recorded in Scripture that teaches demons or human beings ever go into this prison. In these passages it is clear that there is a real Hell that is not the grave and that Spirit beings are confined in chains until judgment (1 Pet. 3:19; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6-7).
Three). Hell itself; (Matt. 16:18; Luke 16:19-31). This is the torment part in the unseen world and was, still is, and will yet be the abode of all the wicked souls and spirits of men from Able to the end of the Millennium. Then, at this time all the wicked will be liberated out of this prison and will be given their own immortal bodies and be judged before being cast into the "lake of fire" forever (Rev. 20:11-15; 21:8).
Four). The Bottomless Pit or Abyss is the abode or prison of demons and certain angelic beings. No human being is ever thrown into the abyss. It is a very deep chasm in the lower parts of the Earth. It is translated "deep" (Luke 8:26-31; Romans 10:7) and "Bottomless Pit" in Rev. 9:1-3, 11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1-10). All these Scriptures prove that there are prisons in the lower parts of the Earth for departed sinning spirits, and they are not and could never be the same as a grave on the surface of the Earth.
And Five). The Lake of Fire, is the eternal Hell and perdition of wicked men, demons, fallen angels, and all rebellious creatures of all ages who have ever rebelled against God, and who have refused to repent when they could have. It is called "The Gehenna of Fire" and is always translated Hell (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43-45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). This prison is also called "the second death, which is the lake of fire" (Rev. 2:11; 20:6, 14). This final Hell was prepared for the devil and all his angels (Matt. 25:41-46), and for all other rebells, and it is ETERNAL in duration (Rev. 14:9-14; 20:10-15; Isa. 66:22-24; Matt. 25:46). There is no record in Scripture of anyone being the lake of fire at present. Scripture does show that the beast and the false prophet will be the first to be cast into it. This will happen before the Millennium (Rev. 19:20). They will still be there 1,000 years later when the devil and all other rebells will be cast into it (Rev. 20:10-15).
Scripture shows that there will be degrees of punishment in Hell as far as remorse and torment of the conscience is concerned (Matt. 10:15; 11:22; 12:41; 23:14; Mark 6:11; 12:40; Luke 10:14; 11:31, 32; 20:47). These degrees of punishment will be because of the kind of sins comitted by one that were not comitted by another. No man will be punished or could have remorse over something he did not do.
Re: How Many Here Were Created For Hell?
___________________________________________________unred typo wrote:That was a quick reply. And I wasn't sure I could remember enough words to find the verses but YAY...I found it! Ezekiel 28, but it doesn't call him Satan but the king of Tyrus. You have to read around to understand that this is the one and the same Satan (but I'm not going to insist on that if anyone knows otherwise and can back it up. )
You could check out Isaiah 14:12-15 too.12Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus says the Lord GOD; You seal up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of your tabrets and of your pipes was prepared in you in the day that you were created. ( sounds like a walking jewel studded pipe organ )
14You are the anointed cherub that covers; and I have set you so: you were upon the holy mountain of God; you have walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
16By the multitude of your merchandise they have filled the midst of you with violence, and you have sinned: therefore I will cast you as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty, you have corrupted your wisdom by reason of your brightness: I will cast you to the ground, I will lay you before kings, that they may behold you.
18You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold you.
Hi unred'
This is not going off topic as hell, which this thread is about, was originally created by God for satan and his demons and followers. In other words the incoragibly wicked (pardon my spelling) Im not real crash hot in that regard, still learning), now including men.
Lucifer was and is a created arc angel but now now fallen and called satan, here is what i found in the Scriptures. Many disregard all this as hogwash and call it the gap theory etc, but in my humble opinion the Scriptures put it up for people to either believe or not. Free moral agency, common sense etc.
In Isa. 14:12-14, and 14 which finally puts him in hell, which you rightly brought to our attention, we have statements which cannot possibly be of an earthly King. The passage is universally refering to the fall of Satan. When we quote it notice these facts.
"How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which dist weaken the nations! For thou art hast said in thine heart, I WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN, I WILL EXALT MY THRONE above the stars of God: I WILL sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I WILL ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE like the most High," Now note the following facts this passage proves of Satan:
1. That his name is Lucifer.
2. That he was a son of the morning, and therefore, no earthly man.
3. That he fell from Heaven. This could never be spoken of a man. Satan is the only person in all Scripture who is spoken of as falling from Heaven (Luke 10:18).
4. That he was cut down to the ground in his fall.
5. That he weakened the nations on Earth.
6. That he was exalted in his heart.
7. That he invaded hHeaven where God rules.
8. That he was a KING, for he had a Throne and SUBJECTS over whom he ruled.
9. That he wanted to exalt his kingdom above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven itself to dethrone God.
10. That he wanted to be worshiped in the congregation of God (Ps. 72:2; 82:1; Isa. 6:1).
11. That he led a rebellion against God but was defeated.
12. That his kingdom was on Earth, or he never could have tried to ascend above the clouds, stars, and into Heaven. When a kingdom is located under the clouds it has to be on the Earth.
13. That the ground, clouds, stars, and Heaven were already created.
14. That it had to be before Adam, for this was not the position of Lucifer when he was in Adam's Eden. Adam had dominion at that time. Lucifer had no kingdom on the Earth at the time of Adam and he has not had one since in the sense of a visible personal rule on Earth. He has only ruled through others since Adam's day; so this must refer to a time before Adam.
15. That he was not in Heaven when he rebelled, else he could not have desired to ascend into Heaven. He was under the stars, or he could not have desired to be exalted above the stars. He was under the clouds, or he could not have desired to ascend above them.
16. That God's throne is located in the north part of the universe (Psalms 75:6-7). Thus, this passage proves the location of Satan's original kingdom and the time of his fall. It was located on Earth, and his fall was before Adam, for he was al;reday a fallen creature when he entered Adam' Eden.
In Coll. 1:15-18 we read of Christ creating thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers in Heaven and on Earth. They were located somewhere in the heavens and on the Earth. Lucifer was given a kingdom here on Earth, as proved by the passages cited above. His own subjects were earthly creatures of various kinds which were destroyed when the flood of Gen. 1:2 came upon the Earth. God created the Earth to be inhabited by earthly creatures (Isa. 45:18). They are called "nations" in the above passages. The demons who are now Satans emissaries could well be the spirits of the pre-Adamites. At any rate they are not part of the creation at the time of Adam. Thus Isaiah teaches the the Earth was inhabited before Adam and was ruled by Lucifer, whos' kingdom was overthrown when he rebelled.
There is so, so much more found in Scripture regarding this doctrin, many dozens of Scriptures support this. If this is false teaching, it amuses me that no one comes up with nothing more than Noah's flood, which occured much later, did not compleatly destroy the Earth, shake mountains, turn them upside down, turned off the stars and the sun so that there was no light. God had already created the Heavens, they were in existence as well as the Earth only their lights were withheld from shining on the Earth thus causing darkness Gen. 1:2. There was no darkness during Noah's flood? There were men and animals on the earth before Noah's flood, and Noah and his family and the animals survived the flood and were on the Eart after it?
That the Earth ONLY was (became) without form and void (Hebrew tohu vabobu, litterally wast and ruin or desolate and empty), as in Gen. 1:2. That there were mountains of Earth that were shaken and turned upside down by an earthquake so severe, which no doubt caused the remains of animals to be deposited in the very depths of the Earth beneath many layers of solid rock, such as are now been found. Noah's flood never buried animals hundreds of meters beneath solid rock.
Many other scriptures apart from those above can be presented to prove the doctrin of a pre-Adamite world.
To try and put this in a nutshell, God created the heavens first, then the Earth, all in the beginning or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). He caused the heavens and the Earth to be inhabited and gave Lucifer control of the Earth-kingdom, don't believe me, read, (Coll. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).
Lucifer ruled the earth for God for an unknown period before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and dethrone God. Not my idea, read (Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). He was defeated and his kingdom on Earth was destroyed by a flood and the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
The Earth was turned upside down, a process which caused all the present formations of the Earth. The flood remained on the Earth for an unknown period of time, and then God in six days restored the Earth to a habitable state and made Adam and Eve and his creation to carry out the original plan of God concerning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).
Lucifer, now called Satan, and the spirit rebels caused man to fall, and they regained dominion of the earth through Adam's submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). They have been in control ever since and will be in control untill the second coming of Christ, who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium and make a New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth all righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5). Why does science show the earth to be many millions of years old and the Bible "(allegedly)" says it is only six thousand years old? So, as with everything missunderstood in Scripture men call what they do not understand a theory. Hence, the gap theory, or even a herecy. But there was a gap and its no theory. Scripture shows there was a creation "in the beginning" and then a re-creation.
If we take the time to carefully read all the Scriptures regarding this doctrin and not just skim over them retaining old knowledge in the mind, and the READ these below, which backs up what is said, and see for yourselves
You see, God spoke, and as soon as the materials were made, God created and formed with His hands the heavens, with all its light and darkness first, then the Earth, all in the beginning, or in the dateless past (Gen. 1:1; Job 38:4-7). God created the heavens and the earth to be inhabited and He gave Lucifer control of the Earth kingdom (Col. 1:15-18; Rev. 12:12; Ezek. 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14). Lucifer obeyed God and ruled for an unknown time before he rebelled and invaded heaven to try and de-throne (Ezek 28:11-18; Isa. 14:12-14).
Naturally Lucifer was defeated, and his kingdom on the earth was totally destroyed by a flood and by the fierce anger of God (Gen. 1;2; Jer. 4:23-26; Ps. 104:5-9; 2 Pet. 3:5-6), hence the severe geological contortions of the earth's crust, vast deposits of bones in various places world wide, fossiles thousands or millions of years old etc. The earth was turned upside down in this process, ever wondered why the moon is poc marked by countless craters, and yet we never see anything plowing into it these days causing such destruction. What about the other dead planets in our immediate solar system? The flood God caused to cover the earth remained for an unknown period of time, and then God, in six days restored the earth to a habitable state and made Adam and his creation to carry out the original plan of God conserning the Earth (Gen. 1:3-2:25).
Lucifer and his spirit rebels caused man to fall and by this regained dominion of the earth through Adams submission (2 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 2:1-3; 6:10-18; Rom. 5:12-21). Lucifer has been in control ever since and he will remain in control untill the second coming of Jesus Christ who will put down all rebellion in the Millennium. God will then finally make a New heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness forever (1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 19:11-22:5).
This doctrin is too simple for most men to understand, so they reject it.
Now, 2 Peter 3:5-7 expresses this clearly in plain human language, "For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing (emerging) out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world THAT THEN WAS, being overflowed with water, PERISHED:
But the heavens and the Earth, WHICH ARE NOW, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."
This is where people become confused and say the world "that then was," was the world before Noah's flood, but this cannot be because:
If the world that THAT THEN WAS" is that between Adam and the flood of Noah, then God created The heavens and the Earth WHICH ARE NOW" since the flood of Noah. Noah and his family lived prior to his flood and after it. The world "THAT THEN WAS PERISHED" and everything in it also perished. What change could Noah's flood make to the heavens? None, for floods on Earth can never cover the heavens. The earth, vegetation, the heavens, all remained the same after Noah's flood.
Peter, in (2 Peter 3:3-7) taught that scoffers were totally ignorant of the flood that destroyed the social system and the earth "that then was" (lucifers flood). These scoffers all knew of Noah's flood and still know today. This proves that the truth of the flood that destroyed the original creation was hidden from them, while they knew about Noah's flood.
What was it that the scoffers were ignorant of unless it was the destruction of the social system before Adam?
This is the doctrin of which men are still ignorant of, which they call "the gap theory." Peter said that the scoffers were willingly ignorant of this truth showing that it is a clear doctrin of Scripture if men would stop being ignorant of it. There are many Scriptures that make this doctrin clear; so "If any man wants to be ignorant, let him be ignorant," as Paul expressed in (1 Cor. 14:38).
Peter said these scoffers of the last days, the days we are in now, since Noah, would be ignorant of the fact that the heavens were of old; that the social system ruled by Lucifer on the old Earth perished by water; that the heavens and the Earth since the six days of restoration are kept in store to be purified again- the next time by fire; that the Lord is not slack concerning His promises of final restoration of the earth to its third perfect state; and that God was longsuffering to all men, not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.
- unred typo
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Re: Were You Created to Be Tortured Forever?
That’s all very interesting, Haz. I need to reread it when I’m awake. I have my own theory about the flood layers, no gaps, but that’s another thread and I‘ll have to admit I believe the book of Jasher to be pretty accurate scripture for the most part and has filled in those gaps for me.
So I gather that you don’t think God created anyone for the purpose or with the intentions of torturing them eternally for his glory, as some hyper calvinists believe?
So I gather that you don’t think God created anyone for the purpose or with the intentions of torturing them eternally for his glory, as some hyper calvinists believe?
The truth will stand with you but man-made doctrines will melt away like cowards in the battle.
Re: Were You Created to Be Tortured Forever?
."So I gather that you don’t think God created anyone for the purpose or with the intentions of torturing them eternally for his glory, as some hyper calvinists believe?"
Hi unred.
Sorry to say I have never heard of this guy, Who's Jaser mate?
No, God would never do that. Hell was originally created for Lucifer and the angels who rebelled with him long before Adam was created, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41). Scripture teaches that He created the Earth and the universe, "to be inhabited." "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else" (Isiah 45:18). And in Ephesians 3:10 it states, " To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God."
Principalities and powers, (plural), in heavenly places teaches there are other kingdoms and powers throughout the universe which God has created and they are ruled by princes, created sons of God, arc-angels, as lucifer was and who once ruled the Earth untill "iniquity was foundin him and he rebelled (Ezek. 28:15-18). He, invaded heaven with his rebell followers (including one third of Gods angels), Star Wars style and tried to dethrone God!
Kingdoms have kings or princes ruling over them, and to have a kingdom at all one must have subjects over which to rule. Shee, I have been banned as a heretic fro less than this on other boards. Anyway, thats how I read the Scriptures Eph. 3:10 and Isa. 45:18, in conjunction with others on this doctrin.
Websters; 4. a country with which a princes title is identified. One of several identities of Satan, formerly Lucifer is "Prince" (Ephesians 2:2). The arc-angel Michael is refered to as Prince several times, ie., (Dan. 10:21; 12:1).
Hebrews 11:13 to 16 speaks of people who have died in the faith, who were strangers and pilgrims on the earth, seeking a better country, "But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
Haz.
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Re: Were You Created to Be Tortured Forever?
Jasher is a lost book that is referred to in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18. Most people don’t think it is genuine but I tend to think it is, with a few places that are more exaggeration or just poorly translated. Here is a link to a free copy:
http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/home.html
The Ethiopian church has supposedly been using it since their beginning and considers it to be scripture. Most on here think not. I bought a copy and read it side by side with my Bible and made a time line comparing them and found that it was very accurate and even more accurate than KJ on the age of Abraham, clearing up some discrepancy in the years and ages in a genealogy or something. I forget now. There are also online discussions about it, but I think it speaks for itself if you read it. Since you’re already a heretic, it won’t hurt you to check it out.
http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/home.html
The Ethiopian church has supposedly been using it since their beginning and considers it to be scripture. Most on here think not. I bought a copy and read it side by side with my Bible and made a time line comparing them and found that it was very accurate and even more accurate than KJ on the age of Abraham, clearing up some discrepancy in the years and ages in a genealogy or something. I forget now. There are also online discussions about it, but I think it speaks for itself if you read it. Since you’re already a heretic, it won’t hurt you to check it out.
The truth will stand with you but man-made doctrines will melt away like cowards in the battle.