TO OPEN

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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Re: TO OPEN or not to open

Post by unred typo » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:25 am

This isn’t my trinity facsimile that I warned you of, but it’s too off topic for here. And this topic is cool without going off in another direction. I didn’t come up with a metaphor for God, I’m not that organized. I’d have to put him in several boxes, too big to lift. But this statement took my eye: *insert googly, wandering eyed smile*
I want to image God as an impersonal force. Not because I think God is impersonal but because I want to get across the idea that even though God is the basis of consciousness, as I believe, we can't understand God's consciousness. God is so far above us we should try to think of God as the dialectic or something.
(I know, it’s back on page 1 but I’m a slow reader, and even slower thinker…)


I believe God is a very personal entity. What is more intimate than love? God is love, says so. Love desires someone/thing to love, but being all powerful, God speaks things into existence, kachunk, and his word brings things to pass, blink. How is this a problem? It’s like having the Midas touch. But more than being tired of free constant rotations, and of getting shiny new stuff you never wanted, he can create everything with real control and not mess up anything he doesn’t want to mess up.

He can create anything, but a free will action. A free will act cannot be created or it’s not freely made. If he makes entities that must love him, they do, but not of their own free will. Love must be freely given or is just not real. So God creates man and gives him the ability to love or reject him, of his own free will. Only you can choose to love God or not. And what’s not to love? Well, there’s the punishment for not obeying, which brings me to God, the father who knows best.

He created man and woman and the whole family thing. Why? For what purpose? So that we can see what being a father is like. Loving someone and having them unconditionally love you back, or not love you back, or thinking you’re unfair or in some cases, kicking you square in the teeth. Ok, breathe. Speaking of teeth, that reminds me, I have to go shopping with my sister… which is like grinding your own teeth down to nubs by hand with a palm sander.

Work that over or ignore it, agree, tear it to shreds, whatever… BBL. Don’t be afraid to hurt my feelings, I’m pretty tough for a gurl. As you can see by my new avatar image.
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Re: TO OPEN

Post by KR Wordgazer » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:39 pm

Actually, Unred (love the avatar! :lol: ) I agree with you completely. I also agree with Metacrock. The same Bible that describes God as the Father also describes Him as "eternal, immortal, invisible," and "He Who dwells in unapproachable light."

When you think about it, "God is love," is actually an abstraction, yet also a description of something we concretely experience. "Love" is both a philosophical concept and the feeling of an arm around our shoulders.

GK Chesterton described Christianity as a religion of paradoxes-- of tensions between two things that seem opposed, that are brought together. For example, God's relations with us are not on some midway point between justice and mercy. No-- in Him both justice and mercy, in the fullest flame of their realities, have met and "kissed each other."

God is both One and Three. Even that idea is enough to help us understand that the Being of God is a Being more complex than our own. Yet God is also "the Word became flesh." The abstraction has become concrete. That which is beyond our understanding has made Himself understood.

God is both the Creator of a vast Universe, and the still, small Voice that comforts us on the darkest night. So there is really no conflict between Metacrock's understanding and yours, Unred. No conflict-- just paradox. :D
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Re: TO OPEN

Post by unred typo » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:42 pm

awww, I'm sooooo confused. I think I got everyone's views mixed up last night when I was posting in my sleep and now here I am back again, trying to read these after my brain has gone to bed... not a good thing. Guess I'll just toddle off until morning when I can hopefully get it straight again. ;)
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Re: TO OPEN

Post by unred typo » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:49 am

KRW wrote :
“God is both One and Three. Even that idea is enough to help us understand that the Being of God is a Being more complex than our own. Yet God is also "the Word became flesh." The abstraction has become concrete. That which is beyond our understanding has made Himself understood.”

(This looked like the perfect spot to dump my nice little user friendly version of the trinity. If Metacrock doesn’t think so, he may, by all means move it to another place or trash it.)

First, let me say that I’m not even positively sure that God is a trinity, but I can see that is basically all he has revealed to us, probably because that’s all we can handle and that’s why he didn’t define himself as a trinity through his son and remove all doubts. Then again, it could be that God was in Christ as a true union of human and God, that was made by taking a part of God, the essence that was the word with which God communicated with himself and created the worlds, from God‘s being and merging it with frail, yet perfect, human flesh. Then, he is God like a son is his father. Ok, put me down as undecided. So if you want to destroy this version of trinity, go ahead. I’ll make more. ;)


It’s like everything that is concrete and everything that is invisible in our existence is reversed in the spiritual world so this is only an analogy of sorts. (we love those) God is like the live person behind the image on our TVs when we‘re watching a live broadcast. The image of God that we see is Jesus Christ, the son. God speaks from heaven, and we see Jesus speaking on our 3-D living color, flesh and blood virtual screen. Jesus says ‘I’m God,’ and he is but he is the God we can see, not the invisible God who is doing the broadcast to our special Virgin-born Theos, Virtue of Truth, Virtual Trinity set. ( TV for short ) So he is truly God speaking to us through live Christ TV, but if we smash the TV screen, we haven’t destroyed God, only the image of God that we can see. When they crucified Jesus, they were destroying the image of God on earth, not the God in heaven broadcasting down through him. When Jesus cried “My God, why have you forsaken me?” he just temporarily lost the signal. Turns out God repaired the TV and the image of God was brought back to life again.


That’s the gist of it, which in no way encompasses all that Jesus was but it helps me visualize the reasons behind the confusion that exists when some say he was God, citing this verse and others say no, no, only the son of God, or the image of God, citing other verses.

Soooo… does that help? Or is it too remote? :mrgreen:
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Re: TO OPEN

Post by KR Wordgazer » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:32 pm

Soooo… does that help? Or is it too remote?
I assume there was a pun intended, there, Unred? If Jesus is like a TV, I think none of us have ever had the remote. ;)

I'll agree with your analogies, but add the idea that Jesus, the Word or Expression of God, was in existence before He became merged with human flesh. The Son of God did not come into existence at the Incarnation; He was pre-existant. 8-)
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Re: TO OPEN

Post by Metacrock » Tue Jan 29, 2008 10:53 pm

KR Wordgazer wrote:
Soooo… does that help? Or is it too remote?
I assume there was a pun intended, there, Unred? If Jesus is like a TV, I think none of us have ever had the remote. ;)

I'll agree with your analogies, but add the idea that Jesus, the Word or Expression of God, was in existence before He became merged with human flesh. The Son of God did not come into existence at the Incarnation; He was pre-existant. 8-)

Amen sister! Orthodox doctrine of the creeds (athenasian I think) declares the eternal generation of the son. The son is uncreated, he is eternally the son always already.
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Re: TO OPEN

Post by unred typo » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:12 am

Wordgazer wrote:
“I assume there was a pun intended, there, Unred? If Jesus is like a TV, I think none of us have ever had the remote.”

Heh heh… you caught it. You’re too quick for me. You probably caught the one in my Relax post too. I must admit I have excessive compulsive pun affliction. That one was motiveless though. Bit of word fluff. I tried not to use it to avoid confusion, but the disorder took control and I was powerless to resist… :oops: :mrgreen:


Wordgazer wrote:
“I'll agree with your analogies, but add the idea that Jesus, the Word or Expression of God, was in existence before He became merged with human flesh. The Son of God did not come into existence at the Incarnation; He was pre-existant.”

Meta wrote:
“Amen sister! Orthodox doctrine of the creeds (athenasian I think) declares the eternal generation of the son. The son is uncreated, he is eternally the son always already.”


It’s nice to agree. I agree that he was always existent, but to clarify. as the word of God, not the son until he became flesh. Otherwise the incarnation doesn’t mean much, does it? Do we not know when “this day have I begotten thee” became a reality? I forget if it refers to the birth or the resurrection of Christ…? :?

I have often wondered who I’m talking to when I’m talking to myself. Am I talking or listening? Am I talking just to myself or is there another in my head ? Am I having a conversation with God? Or is this the way God refers to ‘the word’ as a separate entity? Is this how we are created in his image, having an inner voice that articulates thoughts, feelings, logic and memories? Maybe you have it all figured out but it still something that make me go hmmmmn…

I’m sorry, Meta, but I just can’t get into orthodoxy. I’d rather just go to the word and let the Holy Spirit interpret, than try to figure out what the creeds mean and then try to compare them to what the apostles wrote. I feel like I trusted what orthodox teachers said and then I discovered they discount what Jesus taught so I decided to cut out the middle man. Jesus is the only mediator I need.
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Re: TO OPEN

Post by Hazard » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:28 pm

Hi Zarove'
"Lets share our views on who and what God is, and his relationship to his creation"
.
For what its worth, here is my understanding of God, the Word and their relationship with one another according to the Scriptures I have found in the Bible on this topic. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of understanding and many have even publicly stated that I am doomed and a heretic because of my views. Its up to people as free moral agents to make up their own minds.


God, at this time now is in Heaven, Jesus is at His right hand as shown in the Scriptures. And Scripture teach that God is never in either one, two, or three places at the same time, and that He is not three beings or persons in one body. And no where in Scripture does God teach that Jesus is in millions of man made holding pens in millions of churches world wide in the form of a wafer of bread.

The Scriptures teach that God has a spirit body with bodily parts like a man whom he made in His image and likeness. This is taught by hundreds of Scriptures that do not need interpretation. God is a Spirit being, infinate, eternal, immutable, self-existent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, invisible, impartian, imortal, absolutly holy, full of wisdom, full of knowledge, and just in all things. God is known in Scripture by over two hundred names. He is describes as being like any other person as to having a body, soul, and spirit (Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3; Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-7). He is a spirit being with a body (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-6, 9-19, Exodus 24:11; Gen. 18' 32:24-32; Ezek. 1:26-28; Acts 7:54-59; Rev. 4:2-4; 5:1, 5-7; 22:4-5); shape (John 5:37); form (Phil. 2:5-7, same Greek word as in Mark 16:12, which refers to bodily form); and an image and likeness of a man (Gen. 1:26; 9:6; Ezek. 1:26-28; 1 Cor. 11:7; jas. 3:9; Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-6).

He has a heart (Gen. 6:6; 8:21); hands and fingers (Exod. 31:18; Psalms 8:3-6; Rev. 5:1, 6-7); Nostrils (Ps. 18:8); mouth (Num. 12:8); lips and toung (Isa. 30:27; feet (Ezek. 1:27; Exodus 24:10); eyes, eyelids, sight (Ps. 11:4; 18:24; 33:18); voice (Ps. 29; Rev. 10:3-4; Gen. 1); breath (Gen. 2:70; ears (Ps. 18:6); head, hair, face, arms (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19; Rev. 5:1; loins (Ezek. 1:26:28; 8:1-4); bodily presence (Gen. 3:8; 18:1-22; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Exodus 24:10-11); and many other bodily parts as required by Him to be a person with a body.

God goes from place to place just like any one else (Gen. 3:8; 11:5; 18:1-22, 33; 19:24; 32:24-32; 35:13; Zech. 14:5; Titus 2:13). God is omnipresent but not omnibody, that is His presence can be felt everywhere but His body is not everywhere. God wears cloths (Dan. 7:9-14; 10:5-19; God eats food (Gen. 18:1-22; Exodus 24:11).

I have not yet found one Scripture in the Bible which states that God is intangible, immaterial, without a body, or bodily parts, and pasions except John 4:24, "God is a spirit," and this certainly does not teach that He is without a body.

Paul speaks of the human flesh and bone bodies in the resurrection as being "Spiritual" (1 Cor. 15:42-44), like unto Christs glorious body (Luke 24:39; Phil. 3:20-21); so if human bodies that become spiritualized are still material and tangible, then certianly God and other spirits have bodies just as real and still be spirit beings. John 4:24 states that God is a Spirit, but it does not define or analyze a spirit. I believe the difference between physical material and Spirit material is substance. Maybe ike the difference between titanium and lead? or mud and diamonds.

Who was the Word, who became flesh and bone, who created everything, (John 1:1; John 1:14)? In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1).

The same was in the beginning with God (John 1:2). All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made (John 1;3

In John 1:14 we read that the Word, who was with God became flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory as of the only begotten of the father), full of grace and truth.

Jesus Christ existed in His Spirit body throughout all eternity past, as a member of the Diety, or Godhead, as the Word, untill He divested Himself of His Spirit body and became a man. As God He has always existed. But, as a man, in taking human form, flesh and blood, He had a beginning.

Scripture, show that Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God he had no beginning.

Mic. 5:2 states He existed from all eternity.

John states of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1;1-5).

Jesus Himself said He was before Abraham, and before the World was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24).

Paul states Christ as existing before all things and as the creator and upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Jesus (Eph. 3:9).

Divine names are ascribed to Him.
These divine names and titles proves that He is by nature divine and a member of the Godhead.
He is called God and Immanuel in (Matt. 1:23; John 1:1; 20:28 and Acts 20:28).

Christ the Lord (Luke 2:26); The Son of God (Matt. 4:3; 14:33; Luke 22:70; John 1:34; Rom. 1:4). He is called "MY SON" by the Father in (Matt. 3:17); The only begotten Son (John 1:18; 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9).

He is called the First and the Last. Alpha and Omega, The beginning and Ending (Rev. 22:12, 13, 16). The Lord (Acts9:17); The Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32; Mark 14:61).

The Holy Child Jesus (Acts 4:30); King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16); Lord and Savious (2 Peter 3:2); and The Word Of God (Rev. 19:13), and many more such titles show He is a member of the Divine Godhead.

In Phil. 2:5-11 Paul speaks of Christ being in God's form and that He laid aside this form and limited His attributes and powers as God to become a man. These powers were given back to Him when He was exalted to the highest place with God, (Coll. 3:1; Mark 16:19), after His lowest humiliation and limitation before God-even to do nothing, say nothing, be nothing and depend entirely upon God the Father for needed grace for body, soul, and spirit, and make a sucess of the work the Father sent Him into the world to do (Phil 2:9-11; Eph. 1:21-23; Col. 1:15-24; 1 Pet. 3:22). We know He did not keep His powers and position whilst a man, else He could not have been exalted back to it.

If He had not laid aside all His Glory and power He could not have had it restored to Him as stated in John 17:5. If He had retained all His riches while on Earth He could not have become poor for our sakes as taught in 2 Cor. 8:9. If He had kept His divine form He could not have taken on human form as taught by Phil. 2:5-11.

His incarnation proves He was limited as a man and grew to manhood as we all do, and He developed normally as any other human child. All the traditional theories of Him making toy birds and animals of mud and breathing life into them so they became real creatures and ran and flew away, and the many other miraculous powers He allegedly had from birth are mere theories and traditions made up by suspicious pagans to make Him equal with their pagan gods. He was a normal man as we are, and He did no miraculous works untill He was anointed fully by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:16-17; John 2:11).

After Jesus was annointed by the Holy Spirit to the full, He then posessed all the gifts and Graces of the Holy Spirit to the full, and He demonstrated what being like God among men really is like and He encouraged one and all who aspire to this exalted position, of sons of God with Power (John 3:34; Acts 10:38).
He laid aside His natural and divine attributes, and their use, and became a perfect example of yieldedness to God and His Spirit to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil (Heb. 10:5-9; Acts 10:38).

Regarding His Humanity. Human names were ascribed to Him. Rabboni (John 20:16), Jesus (Matt. 1:21), Son of Abraham and David (Matt. 1:1), Seed and Offspring of David(Rom. 1:3; Rev. 5:5; 22:16). The second man and the Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45-47). The King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2).

Jesus Christ existed in His Spirit body throughout all eternity past, untill He divested Himself of His Spirit body and became a man. As God He has always existed. But, as a man, in taking human form, flesh and blood, He had a beginning.

Scripture, show that Jesus Christ was one of the three divine persons of the Deity and that as God he had no beginning.

Mic. 5:2 states He existed from all eternity.

John states of Him as existing in the very beginning with the Father (John 1;1-5).

Jesus Himself said He was before Abraham, and before the World was created (John 8:58; 17:5, 24).

Paul states Christ as existing before all things and as the creator and upholder of all things (Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-3, 8; 2:10). God the Father created all things by Jesus (Eph. 3:9).

Divine names are ascribed to Him.
These divine names and titles proves that He is by nature divine and a member of the Godhead.
He is called God and Immanuel in (Matt. 1:23; John 1:1; 20:28 and Acts 20:28).

Christ the Lord (Luke 2:26); The Son of God (Matt. 4:3; 14:33; Luke 22:70; John 1:34; Rom. 1:4). He is called "MY SON" by the Father in (Matt. 3:17); The only begotten Son (John 1:18; 3:16-18; 1 John 4:9).

He is called the First and the Last. Alpha and Omega, The beginning and Ending (Rev. 22:12, 13, 16). The Lord (Acts9:17); The Son of the Highest (Luke 1:32; Mark 14:61).

The Holy Child Jesus (Acts 4:30); King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Rev. 19:16); Lord and Savious (2 Peter 3:2); and The Word Of God (Rev. 19:13), and many more such titles show He is a member of the Divine Godhead.

In Phil. 2:5-11 Paul speaks of Christ being in God's form and that He laid aside this form and limited His attributes and powers as God to become a man. These powers were given back to Him when He was exalted to the highest place with God, (Coll. 3:1; Mark 16:19), after His lowest humiliation and limitation before God-even to do nothing, say nothing, be nothing and depend entirely upon God the Father for needed grace for body, soul, and spirit, and make a sucess of the work the Father sent Him into the world to do (Phil 2:9-11; Eph. 1:21-23; Col. 1:15-24; 1 Pet. 3:22). We know He did not keep His powers and position whilst a man, else He could not have been exalted back to it.

If He had not laid aside all His Glory and power He could not have had it restored to Him as stated in John 17:5. If He had retained all His riches while on Earth He could not have become poor for our sakes as taught in 2 Cor. 8:9. If He had kept His divine form He could not have taken on human form as taught by Phil. 2:5-11.

His incarnation proves He was limited as a man and grew to manhood as we all do, and He developed normally as any other human child. All the traditional theories of Him making toy birds and animals of mud and breathing life into them so they became real creatures and ran and flew away, and the many other miraculous powers He allegedly had from birth are mere theories and traditions made up by suspicious pagans to make Him equal with their pagan gods. He was a normal man as we are, and He did no miraculous works untill He was anointed fully by the Holy Spirit (Matt. 3:16-17; John 2:11).

After Jesus was annointed by the Holy Spirit to the full, He then posessed all the gifts and Graces of the Holy Spirit to the full, and He demonstrated what being like God among men really is like and He encouraged one and all who aspire to this exalted position, of sons of God with Power (John 3:34; Acts 10:38).
He laid aside His natural and divine attributes, and their use, and became a perfect example of yieldedness to God and His Spirit to overcome the world, the flesh, and the devil (Heb. 10:5-9; Acts 10:38).

Regarding His Humanity. Human names were ascribed to Him. Rabboni (John 20:16), Jesus (Matt. 1:21), Son of Abraham and David (Matt. 1:1), Seed and Offspring of David(Rom. 1:3; Rev. 5:5; 22:16). The second man and the Last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45-47). The King of the Jews (Matt. 2:2).

He was called a "BABE," a "CHILD," and a "MAN" (Luke 2:16; Isa. 9:6; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2L4-5; Rom. 5:12-21; John 8:40; Acts 2:22; 1 Cor. 15:21, 45-47).

It was prophecied that He would be born of a human mother (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7; 11:1; 53:1-12; Ps. 22).

And He had flesh and blood like all other men (John 1:14; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 4:1-6; Luke 24:39; John 19:34).

Jesus Christ, in His glorified flesh and bone body, now sits beside the Father in Heaven (Luke 24:39; John 20:27; Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), for the Father, who is and did remain a Spirit being, is Spirit and has a Spirit body, and must be worshiped in Spirit and truth (John 4:24).

He was called a "BABE," a "CHILD," and a "MAN" (Luke 2:16; Isa. 9:6; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2L4-5; Rom. 5:12-21; John 8:40; Acts 2:22; 1 Cor. 15:21, 45-47).

It was prophecied that He would be born of a human mother (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 7:14; 9:6-7; 11:1; 53:1-12; Ps. 22).

And He had flesh and blood like all other men (John 1:14; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 4:1-6; Luke 24:39; John 19:34).

As a divine being, as the Word who was with God He could not have died for mankind, but as a man, He could and according to Scripture he did.

Jesus Christ, in His now resurrected and glorified flesh and bone body, as the frist of the first fruits, He now sits beside the Father in Heaven (Luke 24:39; John 20:27; Mark 16:19; Luke 22:69), for the Father, who is and did remain a Spirit being, is Spirit and has a Spirit body, and must be worshiped in Spirit and truth (John 4:24).

Now because Jesus is flesh and bone, though glorified, and the Father, who never became flesh, but remained in Heaven and ran the universe whilst Jesus was on Earth and died for us, is Spirit, and retained His Spirit body, and Jesus now sits beside the Father, at His right hand in Heaven, the two cannot possibly be one in body, as fundamental Christianity teaches, but only one in unity!

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Re: TO OPEN

Post by KR Wordgazer » Sat Feb 16, 2008 2:56 am

Hazard wrote:many have even publicly stated that I am doomed and a heretic because of my views
I've read through most of your posts now, Hazard, and though some things are different from what I'm used to, I see no heresy in any of it. :D I tend to think the places where the Scripture mentions parts of God's body are intended to be taken metaphorically; but your ideas are intriguing and worth considering. God is "eternal, immortal, invisible" and "dwells in unapproachable light." But He certainly could take on the appearance of a man, and apparently has done so in visions given to the prophets. I believe Christians can disagree on matters of this sort without the word "heretic" having to get tossed around.

I think that if you believe in the diety of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, if you believe they are One God and created the universe, and if you believe Christ took on human flesh and died to save us from our sins, then we're in agreement on the basics. All the rest is extra stuff anyway. 8-)
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Re: TO OPEN

Post by Hazard » Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:49 pm

KR Wordgazer wrote:
Hazard wrote:many have even publicly stated that I am doomed and a heretic because of my views
I've read through most of your posts now, Hazard, and though some things are different from what I'm used to, I see no heresy in any of it. :D I tend to think the places where the Scripture mentions parts of God's body are intended to be taken metaphorically; but your ideas are intriguing and worth considering. God is "eternal, immortal, invisible" and "dwells in unapproachable light." But He certainly could take on the appearance of a man, and apparently has done so in visions given to the prophets. I believe Christians can disagree on matters of this sort without the word "heretic" having to get tossed around.

I think that if you believe in the diety of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, if you believe they are One God and created the universe, and if you believe Christ took on human flesh and died to save us from our sins, then we're in agreement on the basics. All the rest is extra stuff anyway. 8-)
Hi 'Wordgrazer, Thanks for the support.

You mentioned that God dwells in an unapproachable light. In my humble opinion, I believe that God, although He can make Himself invisible to the human eye, Is as tangible and as real as any other being, be they human or spirit. I base my understanding on this premise. England, America, Africa, are all invisible to me from here downunder. Yet, if and when I board a plane and go there they all become as real and as visible as the borchures show.

Regarding the Light no man can see and live. This is simply God's Glory in full, not just His outward appearance or shape by which He makes Himself visible, as many Scriptures show. In Exodus 33:18, Moses asked God to show him His Glory not just His body or his facealone. "And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory." And God said to Moses; "I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; etc. God also said to Moses, "Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." Exodus 33:18-20. In verse 22 God states; "And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:" Notice it was God's Glory that passed by which Moses could not see and live.

Moses asked to see God's glory as expressed in His face or countenance, not to see His body orface apart from His glory. That Moses did see God's literal face is clearly stated in verse 11, where it says, "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face as a man speaketh unto his friend, and that he and all Israel had seen Gods glory in a limited sense is clear from Exodus 16:10, " And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the LORD appeared in the cloud," and 24:17, " And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel." So the request was for something he had not yet fully seen. Many others have also seen Gods face and spirit body apart from His Glory.

Regarding the impossibility of man beholding the face of God when He "dwells in a light whom no man has seen nor can see" (1 Tim. 6:16, Moses became an example of this himself when his face could not be looked upon by the people, Israel, because of its brightness (Exodus 34:29-35; and 2 Cor. 3:6-18). God showed Moses His glory as expressed in His back parts, or the glorious after effects and glimpse of the glory after it had passed by (Verse 20-23). God gave Moses a further revelation of His character and infinate nature in, (Verse 19). The Hebrew word for goodness is "tuwb," superlative good; the best of a person; and absolute beauty. This referes to the infinate beauty or glory of God which was to pass before Moses while he was hidden in the cleft of the rock (Verse 22).

Haz.

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