Christians and Sabbath

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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met
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by met » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:59 am

I think it means (or could reasonably be understood as saying) once the prophecies are fulfilled, the Mosaic path - ritual Judaism - has run its course? The new path, more accessible to Gentiles and hellenized Jews, is internalized, a la Jeremiah, & no longer reliant on a worldly "Kingdom."

I'll just repeat this quote from a previous thread.....
One of the key problems that Paul wrestles with is the relationship between sin and the law. In Romans 7, he writes that sin seizes its chance in the commandment, and his awareness of the intermingling of the law and the desire to transgress the law prefigures the psychoanalytic insight that the law operates not only at the level of the letter of the law but also according to its ‘obscene superego supplement’. This is the law’s inherent injunction. It’s a level of implicit rather than explicit discourse that is obscene in its contradiction or transgression of the public text of the law, supplementary because it is this injunction that is what binds the subject to the law, and superegotistical because it takes the form of an injunction to enjoy.

This is why, during the first session of talks at The Idolatry of God retreat, Peter Rollins identified the fall narrative as a key for understanding his wider theological project, presenting the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden as an account of humanity’s existential situation as a creature caught between the law and the law’s inherent injunction for us to transgress the law. No wonder that, in what Žižek calls our ‘postmodern world of ordained transgression’, philosophers like Alain Badiou claim that Saint Paul is our contemporary and that his letters should not fail to resonate with us today. For, as any parent will know, it is often the prohibition itself that creates an excessive desire for that which is prohibited.


Having identified the destructive relationship between sin and the commandment, between law and the implicit injunction to transgress the law, Paul then advocates ‘dying to the law’. For Paul, Life and Death designate alternative subjective paths or dispositions that divide every subject between the thought of the Flesh, which is Death, and the thought of the Spirit, which is Life. While the thought of the Flesh is governed by the Law, the thought of the Spirit is itself dead to the Law and lives instead the life of Love.

Katherine Sarah Moody
http://www.pcnbritain.org.uk/blog/post/ ... _that_dies
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

SayaOtonashi
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by SayaOtonashi » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:13 pm

I ask because one person has been saying I have sinned for going to worship on a Sunday. I mean Gentiles weren't even under the law. Jesus said himself he will make a covenant under grace. If it wasn't we would have to die to keep the law covenant. We have to keep all 613 laws not just the 10. We have all broken them.

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law


To be apart of the law one must be Circumcision. That’s the only one. So Jesus came to open god’s grace for all. The law giving eas only For the Jews and Israel. Gentiles weren’t under that law but under other law.

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met
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by met » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:01 am

Saya, I think that's pretty much it - I agree!
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

SayaOtonashi
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by SayaOtonashi » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:50 pm

So is it wrong to worship God or a Sunday? I always think there is no set day.

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met
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by met » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:14 am

No, I was agreeing with what you said ....
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

The Pixie
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by The Pixie » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:48 pm

met wrote:I think it means (or could reasonably be understood as saying) once the prophecies are fulfilled, the Mosaic path - ritual Judaism - has run its course? The new path, more accessible to Gentiles and hellenized Jews, is internalized, a la Jeremiah, & no longer reliant on a worldly "Kingdom."

I'll just repeat this quote from a previous thread.....
One of the key problems that Paul wrestles with is the relationship between sin and the law. In Romans 7, he writes that sin seizes its chance in the commandment, and his awareness of the intermingling of the law and the desire to transgress the law prefigures the psychoanalytic insight that the law operates not only at the level of the letter of the law but also according to its ‘obscene superego supplement’. This is the law’s inherent injunction. It’s a level of implicit rather than explicit discourse that is obscene in its contradiction or transgression of the public text of the law, supplementary because it is this injunction that is what binds the subject to the law, and superegotistical because it takes the form of an injunction to enjoy.

This is why, during the first session of talks at The Idolatry of God retreat, Peter Rollins identified the fall narrative as a key for understanding his wider theological project, presenting the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden as an account of humanity’s existential situation as a creature caught between the law and the law’s inherent injunction for us to transgress the law. No wonder that, in what Žižek calls our ‘postmodern world of ordained transgression’, philosophers like Alain Badiou claim that Saint Paul is our contemporary and that his letters should not fail to resonate with us today. For, as any parent will know, it is often the prohibition itself that creates an excessive desire for that which is prohibited.


Having identified the destructive relationship between sin and the commandment, between law and the implicit injunction to transgress the law, Paul then advocates ‘dying to the law’. For Paul, Life and Death designate alternative subjective paths or dispositions that divide every subject between the thought of the Flesh, which is Death, and the thought of the Spirit, which is Life. While the thought of the Flesh is governed by the Law, the thought of the Spirit is itself dead to the Law and lives instead the life of Love.

Katherine Sarah Moody
http://www.pcnbritain.org.uk/blog/post/ ... _that_dies
Okay, so when Jesius said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." what he meant was that actually he was abolishing them, by fulfilling the prophecies?

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met
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by met » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:06 pm

Yeah, when he establishes, in two critical passages of the Sermon on the Mount, that keeping Law is no credit to a person if they even WANT to break them. So, right there, the Law (as uncorruptible as it may be) according to Christ, the Law has become pointless, useless, "a stumbling block", much as Paul claims later .... I won't repeat the citations for those verses cuz we've discussed this before, so check the older thread a bit lower down the page.

So this, along with the critique of Law given by Paul in Ro7 that you chose not to deal with, establishes the futility of Law, as Law is only effectual against those who WANT to be lawbreakers, but if keeping Law is no credit to you if you WANT to break it then... well, what..?
.
The problem, it seems to me, is you keep interpreting in a stiff, formal, and nonspiritual manner, as if trying to "trip up" Xianity" with a "technicality."...& it's the very kind of thing Paul seems to have had in mind when he said, "the letter kills..."
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

The Pixie
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by The Pixie » Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:29 pm

met wrote:Yeah, when he establishes, in two critical passages of the Sermon on the Mount, that keeping Law is no credit to a person if they even WANT to break them. So, right there, the Law (as uncorruptible as it may be) according to Christ, the Law has become pointless, useless, "a stumbling block", much as Paul claims later .... I won't repeat the citations for those verses cuz we've discussed this before, so check the older thread a bit lower down the page.
Jesus was against a strict observance of the law for the sake of observing the law. This was in contrast to the Pharisees, who held that the law had to be strctly adhered to (given their belief that the messiah would only appear once Jews were all observing the law). However, to say that Jesus was therefore against keeping God's laws is at odds with what he actually said - for example the verse I quoted prevously. Jesus was an observant Jew.

Consider also:

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Jesus did not say the Sabbath should not be observed, which is what we would expect if the old covenant was to be abandoned. However, he did object to the way the Pharisees forced their overly strict view of the Sabbath on everyone. The Sabbath, according to Jesus, is a day of respite and relaxation after a week of toil.
So this, along with the critique of Law given by Paul in Ro7 that you chose not to deal with, establishes the futility of Law, as Law is only effectual against those who WANT to be lawbreakers, but if keeping Law is no credit to you if you WANT to break it then... well, what..?
I am not dealing with Paul because he is part of the process of twisting Christianity away from what Jesus actually said.
The problem, it seems to me, is you keep interpreting in a stiff, formal, and nonspiritual manner, as if trying to "trip up" Xianity" with a "technicality."...& it's the very kind of thing Paul seems to have had in mind when he said, "the letter kills..."
No, the problem is Christianity ignoring what Jesus actually said.

And yes, Paul had exactly this in mind when he said "the letter kills..." because he was set on shaping Christianity to his own beliefs, rather than those of Jesus, who he had never met. And this put him in direct opposition to those who had met Jesus.

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met
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by met » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:26 am

Well, that's not the story as its told in Acts: there was perhaps some tension but no "direct opposition" and Paul's "mission" was pretty much accepted.

So, where do you derive your theory from here?

(Neither did Paul say there was something wrong with keeping the law, btw, just that it was unnecessary. A correct spirit would keep the "essence" of the Law without effort anyway, that was Paul's point...)
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

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