Christians and Sabbath

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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met
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by met » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:26 am

Well, that's not the story as its told in Acts: there was perhaps some tension but no "direct opposition" and Paul's "mission" was pretty much accepted.

So, where do you derive your theory from here?

(Neither did Paul say there was something wrong with keeping the law, btw, just that it was unnecessary. A correct spirit would keep the "essence" of the Law without effort anyway, that was Paul's point...)
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by The Pixie » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:00 am

met wrote:Well, that's not the story as its told in Acts: there was perhaps some tension but no "direct opposition" and Paul's "mission" was pretty much accepted.
Paul refers to it here:

Galations 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.[a] 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

That seems rather more than just "some tension" to me.
(Neither did Paul say there was something wrong with keeping the law, btw, just that it was unnecessary. A correct spirit would keep the "essence" of the Law without effort anyway, that was Paul's point...)
If it is not necessary to keep it then it is not a law, it is a recommendation.

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met
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by met » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:11 am

Note, however, that according to the passage Peter WAS already committing the "sin" of eating with Gentiles - i.e. he was acting in agreement with Paul - before he succumbed to the human bigotry of other Jews, but then Paul set him straight. So that's far less support for your position than it might first appear, simply from the fact there was a some point something of a confrontation.
If it is not necessary to keep it then it is not a law, it is a recommendation.
According to modern archeology and the theological views that arise out of it, righteousness was NOT about "keeping the Law" since it was already recognized within 1rst century Judaism that no one did it well enough anyway. It was about an cultural identity, about who could belong to the "people of God," the ones who were given the [Mosaic] Law. "The Way", then, was about expanding the cultural groups who could consider themselves "people of God". Rather than being focused on individuals and their salvation (as perhaps it was understood to be 1500 years later in Luther's very influential but eisogetical reading). And this view probably appealed in particular to Hellenized Jews and to those with "mixed" backgrounds of which there were many in the cosmopolitan world of the Roman Empire. "The Way", therefore, was a kind of internalized Judaism, perhaps. (Or, to cop a Deleuzian phrase, it was perhaps a kind of "deterritorialized Judaism.")

What Paul says, then, a number of times, is that these various cultural backgrounds are not so important and not of the essence of "Godliness'. (As when he says, "if you're a Jew, stay Jewish; if you're Greek, stay Greek" and so forth.) There's no particular righteousness in human cultures in Paul's perspective, which is really a pretty commonsense concept, imv. And similar in its common-sensical tone to many of Christ's essential, earthy, common sensical teachings, too, as recorded in the various Gospels....
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

The Pixie
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by The Pixie » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:51 am

met wrote:Note, however, that according to the passage Peter WAS already committing the "sin" of eating with Gentiles - i.e. he was acting in agreement with Paul - before he succumbed to the human bigotry of other Jews, but then Paul set him straight. So that's far less support for your position than it might first appear, simply from the fact there was a some point something of a confrontation.
Peter appears to be a little undecided between Paul's side and James', but this does show that there was another side - what you characterise as "the human bigotry of other Jews".
If it is not necessary to keep it then it is not a law, it is a recommendation.
According to modern archeology and the theological views that arise out of it, righteousness was NOT about "keeping the Law" since it was already recognized within 1rst century Judaism that no one did it well enough anyway. It was about an cultural identity, about who could belong to the "people of God," the ones who were given the [Mosaic] Law. "The Way", then, was about expanding the cultural groups who could consider themselves "people of God". Rather than being focused on individuals and their salvation (as perhaps it was understood to be 1500 years later in Luther's very influential but eisogetical reading). And this view probably appealed in particular to Hellenized Jews and to those with "mixed" backgrounds of which there were many in the cosmopolitan world of the Roman Empire. "The Way", therefore, was a kind of internalized Judaism, perhaps. (Or, to cop a Deleuzian phrase, it was perhaps a kind of "deterritorialized Judaism.")
So are you saying it was never a law? I find that quite a surprising position. Taking for example the observance of the Sabbath, I have always had the impression that this was done strictly, and indeed is still the case in Judaism. In the Bible Jesus was chastised for picking heads of grain, which to me indicates this was against the law (albeit a religious law not a legal law).

So did first century Jews just keep the Sabbath when convenient? Or not at all? Or think it was a good idea to keep it, even though actually they did not? How does this related to cultural identity exactly, in your opinion?

And who are these modern archaeologists? Any names or links?
What Paul says, then, a number of times, is that these various cultural backgrounds are not so important and not of the essence of "Godliness'. (As when he says, "if you're a Jew, stay Jewish; if you're Greek, stay Greek" and so forth.) There's no particular righteousness in human cultures in Paul's perspective, which is really a pretty commonsense concept, imv. And similar in its common-sensical tone to many of Christ's essential, earthy, common sensical teachings, too, as recorded in the various Gospels....
Sure, I think we agree on what Paul says and why.

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met
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Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by met » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:05 am

Px, I'm not saying it was never a law. More like, the Jewish understanding and relationship to Torah was less "primitive", more nuanced (after 1000 years of it) than Martin Luther assumed it had been some 1500 years later ...
Peter appears to be a little undecided between Paul's side and James', but this does show that there was another side
Possibly, it was a more bigoted side tho. And, if it had prevailed, it's less likely that Xianity would have survived to be a "world religion."

:|
And who are these modern archaeologists? Any names or links?
Start here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._P._Sanders
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

The Pixie
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:54 pm

Re: Christians and Sabbath

Post by The Pixie » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:10 pm

met wrote:Px, I'm not saying it was never a law.
Of course not. You are saying it kind of is and kind of is not. It has to be obeyed, even though it does not. It would be great if you could state whether they have to be obeyed or not, but somehow I doubt you will.
More like, the Jewish understanding and relationship to Torah was less "primitive", more nuanced (after 1000 years of it) than Martin Luther assumed it had been some 1500 years later ...
So do they have to be obeyed or not? Who can tell...
Possibly, it was a more bigoted side tho.
So?
And, if it had prevailed, it's less likely that Xianity would have survived to be a "world religion."
I think that is pretty certain. Paul re-invented Christianity (to a degree) to make it appeal to gentiles, and after the Jewish revolt, it was his gentile church that survived.
Okay. from that page:

Sanders could find no substantial points of opposition between Jesus and the Pharisees, and he viewed Jesus as abiding by Jewish law and the disciples as continuing to keep it (cf. e.g., Acts 3.1; 21.23-26, for their worship in the Temple). Sanders also argues that Jesus' sayings did not entirely determine Early Christian behavior and attitudes, as is shown by Paul's discussion of divorce (1 Cor. 7.10-16) where the latter quotes Jesus' sayings and then gives his own independent ruling. In one interview, Sanders stated that Paul felt that "he was the model to his churches."

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