for theo: questions about Orthodoxy

[KR Wordgazer]

I certainly am able to defend my position; I just don't choose to carry on conversations once I have been belittled or disrespected. If you want to continue conversations with me, treat me better.

As for your "nick," I'm not sure whether or not you meant to say you dislike being called "Theo," Theognosis. If so, you have only to say so and I will apoligize and desist.

Finally (and at the risk of being accused of coming back just for a parting shot) you might consider the contradictions in claiming:

1. You see no difference between individuals, family and government.

2. You as an individual do not wish to try to convert me to Eastern Orthodoxy.

3. You are apparently quite willing that the government should insist that I become Eastern Orthodox.

Anyway, we're leaving in a few hours. Bye.

[Theognosis]

I certainly am able to defend my position; I just don't choose to carry on conversations once I have been belittled or disrespected. If you want to continue conversations with me, treat me better.

I don't take these forums seriously. I'm a gentleman in real life, would you believe?

As for your "nick," I'm not sure whether or not you meant to say you dislike being called "Theo," Theognosis. If so, you have only to say so and I will apoligize and desist.

No problem with calling me Theo. I am compelled to respond because the title of this very thread carries my name, that is:

"for theo: questions about Orthodoxy"

Finally (and at the risk of being accused of coming back just for a parting shot) you might consider the contradictions in claiming:

1. You see no difference between individuals, family and government.

2. You as an individual do not wish to try to convert me to Eastern Orthodoxy.

No objections there, although I pray that everybody converts.

3. You are apparently quite willing that the government should insist that I become Eastern Orthodox.

I don’t think it's possible to revert to the old model, given the fact that irreparable damage to society has been inflicted already. The attempt of man to set-up a model of heaven on earth has failed due to man's limitations, arrogance and greed. Heresy abounds. The self rules. We are now living in a spoiled and pop culture that has no direction.

I think there can never be another Constantinople, or as the modern historians would say--Byzantium. All of us, without exception, are standing on its ruins. Traces of its beauty, philosophy, theology, arts, music, poetry, architecture, science, astronomy and mysticism can be found everywhere. Best of all, the Holy Church that it defended for more than a thousand years remains fully intact and unchanged for everybody to see.

Have a nice trip KR!

[KR Wordgazer]

I did have a nice trip, thank you, Theo.

As for "I don't take these forums seriously," what can I say? I guess all I can say is that there is a real person on the keyboard at the other end of a forum conversation (in this case, me ), just as there would be if you were having a phone call or writing a letter. Don't take the forums seriously if you don't want to, but please do take other people's feelings seriously-- I doubt if the "Do Unto Others" rule ceases to apply just because this is the Internet, you know?

To put it honestly, I felt disrespected by the tone of your earlier response. I can't put it more clearly than that. Say what you will, there was a way that the same message could have been communicated without mocking or belittling. In that case, I would have continued to explain my position with a good will, as you are explaining yours, and we could have continued a friendly discussion. But at this point, I have no reason to trust that you won't take that tone again, and walls have gone up. I feel I'd like to hear more of your ideas about Constantinople, but right now I don't feel like there can be any respectful exchange of ideas between us, or that you would listen to my point of view with the same openness I would give yours. And yet "the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits. . . and the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace." Jas. 3:17-18. I am trying to walk in this wisdom by being open to receiving new understanding from your point of view. But unless I feel this is reciprocal, the discussion can go nowhere.

[KR Wordgazer]

In light of a private exchange, all "hostilities" are dropped. In which case, I will address this:

except to say that "religious civil liberty" is not a form of government.

In the context of your reply earlier, it is implied. Recall that we have mentioned the Byzantine model, Moses, King David, Robespierre, liberty and religious freedom.

I think certain forms of government are more conducive to religious liberty than others. But I did not intend my remarks to be an implication that any one particular form of government is more "God's model" than others (except for the nation of Isreal, of course, but as I said earlier, I think there are Biblical reasons not to view that as a model for all peoples for all time).

"Religious civil liberty" doesn't have to mean a United-States-style republic with "separation of church and state." But I do think the New Testament implies in a good many places that repentance and turning to God can never be externally forced by man. Any government, even one with an establishment of religion, can embrace religious civil liberty by giving tolerance and equal justice to all, regardless of their religious beliefs. I do believe the principles set forth in the New Testament, including "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," set forth a basis for not using force to convert, or by law to hold all citizens or subjects to one set of religious practices. As Peter said to the Sanhedrin in Acts 4:19: "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God." Obedience to God must mean freedom to follow the dictates of one's conscience.

That said, Theo, can you explain more about Constantinople as a governmental model?

(edited 4/1/08)