Pope Francis being likable again.

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Magritte
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Re: Pope Francis being likable again.

Post by Magritte » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:19 am

some day our politics get interpreted as fascist because of some machinations in the future we can't foresee. that would mean that all the things we do now for God are worthless some political situation might change.
Yeah I think there's a lesson in that if you're willing to ponder it a while.

It doesn't matter to you that they lacked foresight as long as they were Christians acting out of faith.

It doesn't matter to you that they now lack hindsight as long as they're Christians acting out of faith.

As long as they're nominally Christian, it doesn't make a difference what effect their actions have on the world, or what kind of evil they ally themselves with in the pursuit of temporal power.

Does Francis get to drive the papal bulldozer when he performs one of these mass beatifications, or is that reserved for mass burials?
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Re: Pope Francis being likable again.

Post by Metacrock » Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:07 pm

Magritte wrote:
some day our politics get interpreted as fascist because of some machinations in the future we can't foresee. that would mean that all the things we do now for God are worthless some political situation might change.
Yeah I think there's a lesson in that if you're willing to ponder it a while.

It doesn't matter to you that they lacked foresight as long as they were Christians acting out of faith.

It doesn't matter to you that they now lack hindsight as long as they're Christians acting out of faith.

As long as they're nominally Christian, it doesn't make a difference what effect their actions have on the world, or what kind of evil they ally themselves with in the pursuit of temporal power.

Does Francis get to drive the papal bulldozer when he performs one of these mass beatifications, or is that reserved for mass burials?
they are doing saints for martyrdom not choosing the Nobel prize winner.
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Magritte
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Re: Pope Francis being likable again.

Post by Magritte » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:58 am

You will never convince me that celebrating people who died in the service of evil is smart or virtuous or wise.

Franco won. The church became an arm of his totalitarian state, which lasted 35 years. Why did the church support Franco? Because the Republican state was too secular, and they had lost temporal power. The Spanish church made a deal with the devil, with the usual outcome of such deals. There is nothing to celebrate or glorify there.
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Re: Pope Francis being likable again.

Post by Metacrock » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:34 am

Magritte wrote:You will never convince me that celebrating people who died in the service of evil is smart or virtuous or wise.

Franco won. The church became an arm of his totalitarian state, which lasted 35 years. Why did the church support Franco? Because the Republican state was too secular, and they had lost temporal power. The Spanish church made a deal with the devil, with the usual outcome of such deals. There is nothing to celebrate or glorify there.
do you even know who any of those guys are? do you know there stories?
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Re: Pope Francis being likable again.

Post by Metacrock » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:43 am

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/20 ... sainthood/
Spain was in a state of chaos throughout most of the 1930s, beginning with the exile of King Alfonso XIII in 1931. Anti-Catholic leftists, communists and anarchists were prominent in the government and began a wave of terror by burning churches in Madrid and Andalusia. That was followed by the murders of 37 priests, brothers and seminarians in the small mining town in Asturias in 1934. When nationalist forces tried to seize control of the country the civil war continued until 1939, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands on both sides, including several thousand more members of the clergy.
a bunch of those he's giving it to were priests. he's not giving to soldiers or people who fought for Franco.
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Re: Pope Francis being likable again.

Post by Magritte » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:41 am

from http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4c174a10-3285 ... ab7de.html
Pope Francis has been asked to halt the beatification of more than 500 “martyrs of the faith” killed during the Spanish civil war, amid fresh controversy over the political role played by the Roman Catholic Church in the conflict and during the Franco era.

The appeal was made public in advance of a planned mass in Tarragona on Sunday to beatify 522 priests, monks, nuns and Catholic laymen who the Church says fell victim to religious persecution during the

The ceremony is the latest in a series of moves by the Church to bestow religious honours on members of the Spanish clergy killed by militias in republican-held areas early in the conflict. The civil war ended in victory for Francisco Franco’s nationalists.

Spanish activists representing more than 100 groups and associations say they want the pope to cancel the beatification, which they denounce as “hypocritical and cynical”. In a letter published on Friday, they also call on him to apologise to Spaniards for the Church’s role in “helping and legitimising the military uprising and the Franco dictatorship that claimed so many victims”.

The letter – and the broader controversy surrounding Sunday’s celebration – is likely to stoke debate in Spain about how to deal with its recent past. It follows an appeal by a UN panel last month for Spain to launch a full investigation into crimes committed during the Franco dictatorship and to revoke a 1977 amnesty law that prohibits such inquiries.

Signed by an alliance of Spanish groups that demand full scrutiny of abuses and crimes committed under Franco, the letter to Pope Francis says: “After the death of the dictator nothing changed. In the current democratic period, Spain’s Catholic hierarchy has taken the same line. On the one side, it extols some victims through mass beatifications and canonisations and, on the other side, it forgets the Francoist repression.”

The killing of Catholic clergy in areas under republican control ranks among the most controversial chapters of the war, and continues to excite profound passions among many Spaniards.

At the height of the conflict, nationalist claims that republican militias had murdered more than 50,000 priests and other clergy did much to weaken international support for the republican side. Most historians today cite a 1961 study that puts the number of clergy killed in republican-held areas at 6,832, including 13 bishops, 4,184 priests and 2,365 monks.

Critics of the Church’s stance do not dispute that anti-clerical atrocities took place, but argue that victims of nationalist brutality were not only far greater in number but continue to be denied the recognition they deserve. Many thousands were thrown into unmarked graves that have yet to be uncovered.

Critics also argue that the Spanish clergy offered crucial political and ideological support to Franco both before and during war, which it hailed as a “crusade” against communists and anarchists. The Catholic Church went on to serve as a pillar of the Franco regime, enjoying not only financial privileges but also huge influence over areas such as education and family law.

The beatification is set to take place in front of an expected crowd of 25,000. The city of Tarragona was chosen by the Church for its strong historical links with other Catholic martyrs. St Fructuosus, the city’s bishop, was burned at the stake in the local arena together with two of his deacons in 259, after they refused Roman demands to denounce their faith.

During the civil war, Tarragona was again the scene of anti-clerical violence. According to the Church, 147 members of he clergy were killed, including a bishop.
One of the hallmarks of freedom is that when you recognize someone is being intellectually dishonest or arguing with you in bad faith, you have the option to walk away without being punished, imprisoned or tortured.

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