Objectivism

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

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Kane Augustus
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Objectivism

Post by Kane Augustus » Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:31 pm

I'm not sure where I should place this thread, so please forgive me if it is in the wrong spot.

In any case, I will let you know upfront that I am not a Christian. I used to be. In fact, I also used to be a Lutheran minister. In my post-Christian quest for continued understanding, I have recently come across Ayn Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism (a small write up can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Rand%29). I have come to appreciate her ideas greatly, and, in fact, would consider myself a weak Objectivist.

My questions are these: have any of you studied Objectivism? If so, what are your thoughts on it? What do you like, or dislike?

That's all for now.

Thank you,
Kane

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Metacrock
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Re: Objectivism

Post by Metacrock » Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:10 pm

I would like to introduce you to Kane. He's from Tweb and posts there under another name. He's really bright and a nice guy. I invited him to come here I think he will be a great member of the community.

Now that I gave him a big build up I can slap him in the face with my scathing attack on Rand. :mrgreen:

Seriously though, I can't say that I've studied objectivity systematically. I have read some of Rand. I have a lot of dealings with her followers in several venues in Dallas. I'm adamantly opposed to her view. Although, that may be more a function of the people presenting it.

Hey you didn't expect not to have disagreement right?

What do you like about her views?

Let's cut to the chase. I think her views on selfishness as a virtue are untenable. It's a contradiction to the very concept of virtue. It's possible I'm just being exposed to people who don't really understand it. What's your take on it?
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief

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Metacrock
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Re: Objectivism

Post by Metacrock » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:34 pm

Interesting that you were a Lutheran minister. I have a Masters from Perkins school of Theology at SMU. I'm UMC.
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
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QuantumTroll
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Re: Objectivism

Post by QuantumTroll » Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:41 am

Heya Kane, nice to have another non-believer on the board. I'm a skeptical agnostic and generally try to serve as a foil in some of the discussions here.

Boy, I have a very low opinion of Objectivism (at some point, I wrote a paper criticizing the philosophy in Atlas Shrugged), but I'm willing to listen to its merits if you want to explain what you see as the value and point of it. Maybe that should come first, so Metacrock and I don't make up a strawman. What do you like about Objectivism?

To help prepare you for my likely response, here's a little about me and my background. I consider myself a very Christian sort of atheist, the Good Samaritan type. Before I met my wife, I was generally trying to love everyone equally and help humanity in general through science and humanism. I still try to do that, but now I spend a lot of time and energy on being a loving family-man sort of person. In general, I'm a fan of evidence-based thinking of all kinds, as I'm convinced that human intuition often tends to be wrong and facts have to come in to teach us counter-intuitive truths. So research and data is a good way to convince me of something, or as I like to say "the proof is in the pudding".

Importantly, in this context, I live in Sweden and I fall slightly on the left side of the political scale here. This means I'm way off on the left on the American scale. As an illustration, my dad consistently votes for one of the most right-wing parties in Sweden, but in the US he's considered a full-blown socialist. I'm worse. I lived in the US for 12 years, and spent a number of those years politically active.

The mathematics of collective behavior is one of the research areas at my university that I'm most interested in, and I believe I have some unusual insight into how our society works from looking at it in this way. For example, it's led me to appreciate the ins and outs of how local (individual) decision-making yields global (societal) results. It's also led me to study chaos, or the limits in predicting the behavior of certain types of dynamical systems.

So you see, it'll probably be very hard to change my mind. But I'm genuinely interested in hearing what you think is good and worth listening to in Objectivism and may accept at least something, you know?

Kane Augustus
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Re: Objectivism

Post by Kane Augustus » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:30 am

Just by way of common courtesy, I will let you know that I am going to come back to this subject in a couple of days. My work schedule is a wonderful study in chaos theory, and I'm just about to head out the door.

Thank you for your responses, Metacrock, and Quantum Troll. I appreciate your expedience in replying. I will return a response as soon as I can.

Take care,
Kane

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MonolithTMA
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Re: Objectivism

Post by MonolithTMA » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:54 pm

Welcome, Kane! I haven't studied Objectivism, the spines on my two Rand books are perfect, but I look forward to seeing what you have to add to the conversation here.
Peace,
Mike aka MonolithTMA

"The idea that the truth of God can be bound in any human system, by any human creed, by any human book is almost beyond imagination for me." -- John Shelby Spong

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Metacrock
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Re: Objectivism

Post by Metacrock » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:34 pm

Kane Augustus wrote:Just by way of common courtesy, I will let you know that I am going to come back to this subject in a couple of days. My work schedule is a wonderful study in chaos theory, and I'm just about to head out the door.

Thank you for your responses, Metacrock, and Quantum Troll. I appreciate your expedience in replying. I will return a response as soon as I can.

Take care,
Kane
sure man. I figured since you told me before that your schedule is hard sometimes.
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief

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Metacrock
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Re: Objectivism

Post by Metacrock » Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:35 pm

Hey QT I like your post. thanks for responding man. I think we agree on this one, for a change! :mrgreen:
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
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ZAROVE
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Re: Objectivism

Post by ZAROVE » Sat Oct 02, 2010 6:37 pm

I have studied Objectivism, and even read Ayn Rands “Atlas Shrugged”.


The Irony is that a lot of her Libertarian beliefs mirror my own, and my own come out of GASP! My Christian beliefs!

Of course Christians ten not to understand me these days. I follow a very Traditional sort of Christian thought. I grew up in, and still attend, the Churches of Christ, but have my own views on most things.


I was born in Sussex, but have lived the vast majority of my life in Tennessee, which is in the Confederate, er, United States of America. (Save a few trips to a few places, like back to the mother country and to California. I was once deported from England of all places over a bizarre technicality…)

I tend to be a bit conservative, but, strangely, I’m referred to as a Raving Liberal on most Tea Party sites or Neocon hangouts that my name is known. Some even think I’m a full blown Communist. I’m not sure how they think this as I’m a Monarchist, though they associate monarchism with Liberalism, and somehow lump it all in with Communism. (Thank you, Mitt Romney and Glenn Beck.)


I believe in the Right over ones own Property as the basic fundamental right of Liberty, as well as the right of Volition. This means that no one can dictate to you what you do with your own Land or property provided no harm comes to others or their property. It is yours. You own it.


I believe Democracy is a bad idea and a Small, privately owned Government would work best. (Read Hoppes “Democracy, The God That Failed” for more.)

I believe that mist law ought to be handled Locally rather than by Distant Bureaucrats who really don’t know what you need.


I am also a Pragmatic Rationalist who prefers to have evidence and reason before I believe anything.

Theologically I am a Trinitarian, who adheres to the Doctrines of the Ancient Orthodox and Catholic Faith. Jesus was both Messiah and God Incarnate, he was Born of a Virgin, he worked Miracles, he died for the Atonement of our Sins, and he resurrected. God is Eternal and all Powerful, and a Spirit. We have an Afterlife. We have Freedom of Volition, or Free Agency, or Free Will, what have you. Baptism is required for entry into the Church and for remission of sins, but those who are not and never have been Christian may find Gods Grace afterward, for he is the Final Judge ( In the person of Christ).


I am very tolerant of other Religions and views but a Fierce debater.

I believe wholly in the Right of Freedom of Speech, Assembly, and Press. Yes I know I am a Monarchist, but only a fool thinks Democracy and Freedom are the same thing.


I hope I've explained this well.

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MonolithTMA
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Re: Objectivism

Post by MonolithTMA » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:24 am

ZAROVE wrote:I hope I've explained this well.
I understood it so you must have. ;)
Peace,
Mike aka MonolithTMA

"The idea that the truth of God can be bound in any human system, by any human creed, by any human book is almost beyond imagination for me." -- John Shelby Spong

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