I want to puck!

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

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Metacrock
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I want to puck!

Post by Metacrock » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:23 pm

this:

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.p ... ion/page28

I feel that I let her down somehow. I can't convenience everyone. I changed he original post here because it was being misinterpreted.
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tinythinker
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by tinythinker » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:31 pm

Metacrock wrote:this:

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.p ... ion/page28

why? Hey I want to give up the greatest thing in the universe, destroy my chance to know the cetner of love and goodness so I can feel accepted by a gang of rude stupid uneducated brown short bully who love to harass people and mock things they don't know about. Yea!


Did I let this guy down? He posted here, he was one of our little group. How did I manage not to get him the answers he needed?

He calls light darkness. You have to be sick. this guy wants to hug everybody but he's calling of goodness "darkness."
tECHNIcally it's a she.
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KR Wordgazer
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by KR Wordgazer » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:25 pm

My experience is that those who have been religious and experience leaving religion with a sense of relief, are carrying fundamentalist, spiritually abusive teachings and baggage that they are not able to disassociate from their religious experience.

Sometimes people who have been through this really need to stop believing in God ,for a while at least, to get the punishing tyrant dictator god out of their consciousness.
Wag more.
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A Hermit

Re: I want to puck!

Post by A Hermit » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:48 am

This will be my first and last post in this forum.

That's my friend Holly you're attacking here; a she, not a he. In my experience she has been one the most consistently polite, optimistic, fair minded, level headed, thoughtful, loving commenters on CARM . You could learn a thing or two about communication skills from her...well we all could.

She is always kind and considerate in her online dealings with others and has been on a genuine search for some peace and understanding, and you're calling her sick and pulling out the old Nazi slurs because she feels that she has found those things?

Sometimes I think you just aren't worth talking to.

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Re: I want to puck!

Post by Metacrock » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:56 am

The allusion to brown shirst is not an allusion to her.

obviously an allusion to a group separate from her.
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by Metacrock » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:02 am

I don't see how I said anything critical of her. I guess my thing did sound like satirically ridiculing her choice, but I like her. OK I thought she was a guy but I liked the person I thought she was. I still do.

I genuinely feel I let her down. I failed in some way to communicate to her the truth. that's why I feel like hurling, not because of her or who she is.
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by soms » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:34 am

Metacrock wrote:I don't see how I said anything critical of her. I guess my thing did sound like satirically ridiculing her choice, but I like her. OK I thought she was a guy but I liked the person I thought she was. I still do.

I genuinely feel I let her down. I failed in some way to communicate to her the truth. that's why I feel like hurling, not because of her or who she is.
hey meta,
it's me...and yes i am a girl...many have assumed i am a guy...
(thank you hermie for you kind words)
May I first tell you that i see light in others who have not chosen my path, and (that is stated clearly further down in my thread)
Some of my most treasured friends are Christians, Baha'i, Hindus, Buddhist, a Jew or two, :geek: a Native American, Theist, Deist, as well as agnostic, and atheist. So just to let you know, by deconversion was not for a pat on the back...in fact, it has caused some serious real life hardship for me, considering i know no atheist/agnostic in real life. All of my family, and acquaintances, and coworkers (save one, who just recently admitted to being a closet agnostic) are Christian. And most are right winging, bible thumping christians. This journey has been long, hard, and bumpy getting here.


For the first time in my life though, i feel true...peace.


with much love, (and no nazi hate...hey is it that weird that atheists can follow the golden rule, and be full of empathy and compassion?) :mrgreen:

soms/holly
It is better to light a candle, then curse the darkness

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Re: I want to puck!

Post by soms » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:37 am

KR Wordgazer wrote:My experience is that those who have been religious and experience leaving religion with a sense of relief, are carrying fundamentalist, spiritually abusive teachings and baggage that they are not able to disassociate from their religious experience.

Sometimes people who have been through this really need to stop believing in God ,for a while at least, to get the punishing tyrant dictator god out of their consciousness.
I will not deny this as a possibility, (and appreciate your kindness in this) however, for me the thought of letting go of God, was more scary than i could ever imagine. I had evolved from evangelical christian, all the way down to deist, clinging to that last leg of "hope", struggling with the issue of...
purpose? life after death? and other issues. The main factor was not being able to "fit" this supreme being into any logical proof, or evidence, and realizing that I was "clinging' really bothered my intellectual honesty (or continued hope to remain so).

with love,
soms
It is better to light a candle, then curse the darkness

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Re: I want to puck!

Post by tinythinker » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:37 pm

soms wrote:
KR Wordgazer wrote:My experience is that those who have been religious and experience leaving religion with a sense of relief, are carrying fundamentalist, spiritually abusive teachings and baggage that they are not able to disassociate from their religious experience.

Sometimes people who have been through this really need to stop believing in God ,for a while at least, to get the punishing tyrant dictator god out of their consciousness.
I will not deny this as a possibility, (and appreciate your kindness in this) however, for me the thought of letting go of God, was more scary than i could ever imagine. I had evolved from evangelical christian, all the way down to deist, clinging to that last leg of "hope", struggling with the issue of...
purpose? life after death? and other issues. The main factor was not being able to "fit" this supreme being into any logical proof, or evidence, and realizing that I was "clinging' really bothered my intellectual honesty (or continued hope to remain so).

with love,
soms
I think that's entirely consistent with what KR wrote. This whole conversation may be a case of talking past one another.

For instance, you mention letting go of God. But what does that mean? Was God in your pocket? Maybe on your iPod? Did you set God out with the trash? What you let go was an idea about God. A conception of God. A way of relating to God. Then you mention this was scary, that your background was conservative evangelical, and that your friends and family are all conservative Christians, which fits with the "fundamentalist baggage" KR mentioned. You kept struggling to hold on to this perspective, but intellectual honesty won out because there were things that didn't work with your expectations and assumptions, including your interpretation of what God and religion is supposed to be and what is valid or invalid in assessing such requirements.

I cannot go into everything I've written here or on my blog on the matter, but I went through the same thing, as have thousands of others. For whatever its worth, here are a very few of the things I have figured out for myself along the way:

1. It is entirely logical to believe in God, but God's existence is not dependent on our belief or what we consider to be logical. God is the "no-thing" which serves as the source and sustainer of existence, exploding our limited categories such as "person"/"non-person" and "subject"/"object".
2. God is not a link in the grand causal chain of existence, even the hypothetical first link. God is the steel of the chain and the shape of the steel and that in which the chain exists.
3. From our limited perspective God can loosely be considered the foundation of reality, the only real thing that exists. From our point of view it precedes, coincides with, and follows everything.
4. What we can choose to accept or reject is not God, but our extremely incomplete and distorted intellectual notion of God. To truly reject God is to reject the most fundamental and essential aspect of ourselves.
5. Some atheists then actually are moving towards God and a sliver on an awareness of the Divine when they reject beliefs that for them lead to ignorance and oppression.

I don't write any of this as a challenge to Holly or an attempt to convince anyone of anything. But it does give a glimpse into the fact that where she is can't be assumed to be the end of her spiritual journey. In fact, it was only after such a thorough and wrenching purging that I was able to begin the real journey.
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by soms » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:33 pm

tinythinker wrote:
soms wrote:
KR Wordgazer wrote:My experience is that those who have been religious and experience leaving religion with a sense of relief, are carrying fundamentalist, spiritually abusive teachings and baggage that they are not able to disassociate from their religious experience.

Sometimes people who have been through this really need to stop believing in God ,for a while at least, to get the punishing tyrant dictator god out of their consciousness.
I will not deny this as a possibility, (and appreciate your kindness in this) however, for me the thought of letting go of God, was more scary than i could ever imagine. I had evolved from evangelical christian, all the way down to deist, clinging to that last leg of "hope", struggling with the issue of...
purpose? life after death? and other issues. The main factor was not being able to "fit" this supreme being into any logical proof, or evidence, and realizing that I was "clinging' really bothered my intellectual honesty (or continued hope to remain so).

with love,
soms
I think that's entirely consistent with what KR wrote. This whole conversation may be a case of talking past one another.

For instance, you mention letting go of God. But what does that mean? Was God in your pocket? Maybe on your iPod? Did you set God out with the trash? What you let go was an idea about God. A conception of God. A way of relating to God. Then you mention this was scary, that your background was conservative evangelical, and that your friends and family are all conservative Christians, which fits with the "fundamentalist baggage" KR mentioned. You kept struggling to hold on to this perspective, but intellectual honesty won out because there were things that didn't work with your expectations and assumptions, including your interpretation of what God and religion is supposed to be and what is valid or invalid in assessing such requirements.
oh certainly, I would agree that it was the concept of God i was letting go of, as I do not believe in the existence of a God to "actually' let go of..:)
and I would agree with the baggage idea, except for me that was rather experienced in the morphing from evangelical christian, to theist (all roads lead to god) , then into the deist phase.
I cannot go into everything I've written here or on my blog on the matter, but I went through the same thing, as have thousands of others. For whatever its worth, here are a very few of the things I have figured out for myself along the way:

1. It is entirely logical to believe in God, but God's existence is not dependent on our belief or what we consider to be logical. God is the "no-thing" which serves as the source and sustainer of existence, exploding our limited categories such as "person"/"non-person" and "subject"/"object".
2. God is not a link in the grand causal chain of existence, even the hypothetical first link. God is the steel of the chain and the shape of the steel and that in which the chain exists.
3. From our limited perspective God can loosely be considered the foundation of reality, the only real thing that exists. From our point of view it precedes, coincides with, and follows everything.
4. What we can choose to accept or reject is not God, but our extremely incomplete and distorted intellectual notion of God. To truly reject God is to reject the most fundamental and essential aspect of ourselves.
5. Some atheists then actually are moving towards God and a sliver on an awareness of the Divine when they reject beliefs that for them lead to ignorance and oppression.

I don't write any of this as a challenge to Holly or an attempt to convince anyone of anything. But it does give a glimpse into the fact that where she is can't be assumed to be the end of her spiritual journey. In fact, it was only after such a thorough and wrenching purging that I was able to begin the real journey.
as always tiny, your thoughts are humbly appreciated by me.
I will wholeheartedly agree to NOT being at the end of the journey...(it has only just begun :D)

I could also admit that there are, and i could have held distorted intellectual notions of God. However, in essence, my beliefs before crossing over, were summed up only in this...
"God is love" that everything was redeemable, and that he had a plan. Hell itself held no fear for me, because I believed he himself dwelled with us in the deepest of the abyss. (not to mention i found little evidence to hold to such a concept)

I still see much value in the ability to believe in a God, and that inspire one to live, and live compassionately and empathetically with the world around oneself.

For me, the struggle with the existence of evil and suffering was one of the main points of contention, (with the big "wish" that a supreme being would one day right all the wrongs, and reconcile everything.)

However, it is more than just that. There are many points I struggle with in the evidence field.
Do we see evidence of a supreme being?
evidence of the supernatural in any way?
Can/does one need God to live/walk in love?
and many others...

much love, (and appreciation)
soms
It is better to light a candle, then curse the darkness

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