I want to puck!

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

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Re: I want to puck!

Post by Metacrock » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:46 am

and yet certainly not a description of an encounter with what the majority of discussants, would call "God". you do indeed have a most eloquent way with words, (and DEEP thoughts :geek: :D) However, you leave no room for the atheist...: that seems just a bit unfair. :D
you are already becoming proficient in the atheist propaganda lines. The divide and conquer approach to world religion has always been the party line of the atheists. What Tiny said is acute, all world views seek to explain other views in their own terms, but at the same time most world religion is inclusive in a sense because certain universals are recognized by most.
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by tinythinker » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:48 am

Apparently I've been so busy I missed a couple of comments directed to me. I apologize.
Metacrock wrote:this is brilliant Tiny. you gotta bottle this. I want to use it as a quest thing on my blog is that ok?
I guess that's better than "This is utter bullshit" :D , but I wouldn't use the word "brilliant" either. I don't mind if you use it but just leave out the brilliant stuff. Just say it's something interesting from some guy.
fleetmouse wrote:Tiny, you're so insightful and eloquent I'm making you an honorary atheist.
I am sure if it were posted elsewhere it would be considered delusional and condescending :p And in any case, we never really lose the previous parts of ourselves. There are many insights and perspectives I gained during my several year tenure in atheism that are still valuable and useful to me today. I am sure that some small minority of folks (on "either" side, as if there were only two views) would say I am still an atheist if I don't strictly adhere to their extremely narrow vision of God. And while we are at it, while few would count me as a proper atheist anymore, I think many would still "allow" me into the Buddhist club. As my former priest of a few months (he retired soon after I started attending his parish) happily declared when inquiring about my background, I'm a Kosmopolite*.



*alternate spelling includes Cosmopolite.
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by fleetmouse » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:42 am

tinythinker wrote:
fleetmouse wrote:Tiny, you're so insightful and eloquent I'm making you an honorary atheist.
I am sure if it were posted elsewhere it would be considered delusional and condescending :p
I see you missed my little joke so I'm going to have to explain - your recontextualizing of Ingersoll's remarks is not much different from some atheist's potential retort that all your stuff about religious experience is just so much misunderstood neurotransmitter activity.

What I'm coming to understand is that the dialog between theists and nontheists, even really smart and well educated ones, is mainly an attempt to outflank the other and locate him within one's own paradigm. That's why I was saying that I'd make you an honorary atheist. It's to say that if there's something redeeming about you or your ideas, it's because they're consonant with my paradigm, or at least I'd like to think so as I allow my paradigm to overflow and encompass you like The Blob. :mrgreen:
And in any case, we never really lose the previous parts of ourselves. There are many insights and perspectives I gained during my several year tenure in atheism that are still valuable and useful to me today. I am sure that some small minority of folks (on "either" side, as if there were only two views) would say I am still an atheist if I don't strictly adhere to their extremely narrow vision of God. And while we are at it, while few would count me as a proper atheist anymore, I think many would still "allow" me into the Buddhist club.


And that's why there's as much sincerity as sarcasm in my "honorary atheist" comment - you're willing to change your mind, an admirable quality that anyone should be grateful to have in one's own camp, if one were not the type who conducts purges.
As my former priest of a few months (he retired soon after I started attending his parish) happily declared when inquiring about my background, I'm a Kosmopolite*.

*alternate spelling includes Cosmopolite.
Yes, you absolutely are, and so is Meta and so are most of the theists who post here, and that's why I come back and talk to you guys when I get tired of jabbing sharp sticks into the little mental cages at Carm. :D

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Re: I want to puck!

Post by met » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:13 pm

Sorry Tiny. My bad. Don't blame Fleet, he's just returning tit-for-tat.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1086&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=10#p12062


:oops:
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by tinythinker » Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:14 pm

fleetmouse wrote:
tinythinker wrote:
fleetmouse wrote:Tiny, you're so insightful and eloquent I'm making you an honorary atheist.
I am sure if it were posted elsewhere it would be considered delusional and condescending :p
I see you missed my little joke so I'm going to have to explain - your recontextualizing of Ingersoll's remarks is not much different from some atheist's potential retort that all your stuff about religious experience is just so much misunderstood neurotransmitter activity.

What I'm coming to understand is that the dialog between theists and nontheists, even really smart and well educated ones, is mainly an attempt to outflank the other and locate him within one's own paradigm. That's why I was saying that I'd make you an honorary atheist. It's to say that if there's something redeeming about you or your ideas, it's because they're consonant with my paradigm, or at least I'd like to think so as I allow my paradigm to overflow and encompass you like The Blob. :mrgreen:
But we all must "recontextualize". I don't see how it can be avoided unless one has no ideas about how things work, has never thought about their assumptions of how things work, or refuses to be candid about their assumptions. I have no interest in outflanking anyone to score points or win an argument, but we all have to work out some understanding of the world that is comprehensive and encompasses/accounts for other points of view. Unless we just want to insulate ourselves from those with who we disagree. If you think the moon is made of cheese, I can respect your right to your opinion, but I would still interpret it within my own view that the moon is made of rock. Nor do I think that ideas I disagree with only have redeeming value because they can be accounted for with my own. I think there are times when just having some position is vastly better than nothing, even if it is alien to my own way of thinking. This is true for example of living for something greater than yourself (some cause, ideal, etc) or being able to find a reason to be happy. There are lots of things people go for in these areas that I find incomprehensible and which make no sense in my appreciation of how the world turns, but they seem to work alright for those folks.
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by Metacrock » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:30 am

fleet says: Yes, you absolutely are, and so is Meta and so are most of the theists who post here, and that's why I come back and talk to you guys when I get tired of jabbing sharp sticks into the little mental cages at Carm. :D
It's funny because it's so true :mrgreen:
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by soms » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:20 am

tinythinker wrote:
soms wrote:and yet certainly not a description of an encounter with what the majority of discussants, would call "God". you do indeed have a most eloquent way with words, (and DEEP thoughts :geek: :D) However, you leave no room for the atheist...: that seems just a bit unfair. :D
The majority of which discussants? People in the US? Christians descended from the Roman Catholic form of Christianity? The people on CARM? Besides, many would be thrown off by the context, and I am not a fan of argumentum ad populum anyway. As for leaving no room for the atheist, what room does the atheist leave for others? Do they not interpret those who recognize God in terms of their own non-belief? Any worldview must explain other worldviews in its own terms, whether they explicitly acknowledge doing so or not. Many Buddhists say Jesus was a Bodhisattva who attained full and perfect enlightenment. That's the highest honor they can give to anyone. Some secularists say Jesus was one of the wisest and most compassionate teachers and leaders in history. Again, that's the biggest honor permitted in their view of the world. If one recognizes God, then one is going to then say "How does person X relate to God", because God is a given. I don't see how that is unfair. It's just a different orientation to existence.
it was a small joke on my part tiny. I hope you do know that I have (and always will ) valued your thoughts and input. And I do understand completely that each side leaves little room for the other. My hope is that one day we will all be able to allow for each others perspectives on this factor and work together for the things we are in unity on. (which i think would be quite a few).....

much love,
soms
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by tinythinker » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:35 am

soms wrote:
tinythinker wrote:
soms wrote:and yet certainly not a description of an encounter with what the majority of discussants, would call "God". you do indeed have a most eloquent way with words, (and DEEP thoughts :geek: :D) However, you leave no room for the atheist...: that seems just a bit unfair. :D
The majority of which discussants? People in the US? Christians descended from the Roman Catholic form of Christianity? The people on CARM? Besides, many would be thrown off by the context, and I am not a fan of argumentum ad populum anyway. As for leaving no room for the atheist, what room does the atheist leave for others? Do they not interpret those who recognize God in terms of their own non-belief? Any worldview must explain other worldviews in its own terms, whether they explicitly acknowledge doing so or not. Many Buddhists say Jesus was a Bodhisattva who attained full and perfect enlightenment. That's the highest honor they can give to anyone. Some secularists say Jesus was one of the wisest and most compassionate teachers and leaders in history. Again, that's the biggest honor permitted in their view of the world. If one recognizes God, then one is going to then say "How does person X relate to God", because God is a given. I don't see how that is unfair. It's just a different orientation to existence.
it was a small joke on my part tiny. I hope you do know that I have (and always will ) valued your thoughts and input. And I do understand completely that each side leaves little room for the other. My hope is that one day we will all be able to allow for each others perspectives on this factor and work together for the things we are in unity on. (which i think would be quite a few).....

much love,
soms
Well, the first issue will be convincing people they are not on "sides"...
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Re: I want to puck!

Post by soms » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:40 am

tinythinker wrote: Well, the first issue will be convincing people they are not on "sides"...
indeed.
I believe all those working towards compassion...should realize...we are on the same side.

And perhaps learn to not begrudge each other of their scope of perspective on life?
It is better to light a candle, then curse the darkness

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Re: I want to puck!

Post by Gwarlroge » Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:37 pm

runamokmonk wrote:Even if you somehow prove God exists I think there would still be that question.

In a sense, even Jesus asked that question.
Well, *quibble quibble*. He did say, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

But you are right. If someone irrefutably proved that God exists, then not everyone would be a Christian, or even a theist.

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