What is left? (something to ponder)

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

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tinythinker
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What is left? (something to ponder)

Post by tinythinker » Sat May 21, 2011 12:38 am

person A: "I am a Christian."

person B: "What would you have if I took away God, Jesus and the Bible."

person A: "I would have nothing."

person B: "Then you already have nothing."

person A: "I have nothing?"

person B: "Actually, you have everything, including God and Jesus. You always have, and you always will."

person A: "I though you said I had nothing."

person B: "No, you said it. It's what you really believe. I merely exposed that belief."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

A couple of things to things to consider:

1. We can repeat this with minor variations for Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, etc.
2. I agree with person B.


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Metacrock
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Re: What is left? (something to ponder)

Post by Metacrock » Sat May 21, 2011 6:13 am

tinythinker wrote:person A: "I am a Christian."

person B: "What would you have if I took away God, Jesus and the Bible."

person A: "I would have nothing."

person B: "Then you already have nothing."

person A: "I have nothing?"

person B: "Actually, you have everything, including God and Jesus. You always have, and you always will."

person A: "I though you said I had nothing."

person B: "No, you said it. It's what you really believe. I merely exposed that belief."

--------------------------------------------------------------------

A couple of things to things to consider:

1. We can repeat this with minor variations for Muslims, Jews, Atheists, Buddhists, etc.
2. I agree with person B.


Have fun.

why take away God Jesus and the bible? You can't take them away because you can't take away being itself.
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tinythinker
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Re: What is left? (something to ponder)

Post by tinythinker » Sat May 21, 2011 12:47 pm

Metacrock wrote:why take away God Jesus and the bible?
The question is, what are they? If they are merely thought-objects, belief-objects, psychological constructions, then what do we have anyway? Why choose those items? Because the example used Christianity. But we could also take away the Buddha, nirvana, and the like, or whatever one identifies with.

Metacrock wrote:You can't take them away because you can't take away being itself.
I would accept this, pending review of whether one is reducing "being itself" to mental constructions of God and Jesus or whether one is finding "being itself" through God and Jesus. It's a subtle difference with profound implications. But I suspect you've got it. Anything, including God, that we can choose or lose, is not true being. It is an illusion. An idol. It's like the saying about finding Buddha on the road. You have to kill him. Otherwise you were just grasping at another idea. God must die to find God. Jesus must die to find Jesus. The Buddha must die to find the Buddha. We must die to find ourselves.
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Re: What is left? (something to ponder)

Post by fleetmouse » Mon May 23, 2011 7:31 am

Beautiful, tiny, just beautiful. I want to see this thread take off because that's a wonderfully concise statement about the relationship between the contingent and the universal in religion.

Isn't what's special about Christianity the incarnation, though? The instantiation of the universal and timeless WITHIN the particular and the contingent? Doesn't Christ work as a bridge? I think I'm developing more of an appreciation for the contingent elements of the Christian mythos (I'm not asserting it's "untrue" merely because I'm using the word mythos), and how they function as humanizing elements... there's something very cold and inhuman about the transcendent, the thing that's supposed to be the goal of all this Eastern-ish winnowing away of the architecture of the self and its story.

Is it possible that some or all of the meaning we create for ourselves is in those "junk" layers? And that when we get rid of that, there's no "there" there? Isn't it an attempt to get outside of history and context, and isn't history and context where we create or find meaning? Isn't "self" (not as a reified hard thing but as a dynamic and changing process) something valuable?

Of course it's possible to get TOO trapped in the particulars of a myth - witness those poor bastards waiting for the rapture on Saturday. :-(

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Re: What is left? (something to ponder)

Post by Metacrock » Mon May 23, 2011 8:38 am

tinythinker wrote:
Metacrock wrote:why take away God Jesus and the bible?
The question is, what are they? If they are merely thought-objects, belief-objects, psychological constructions, then what do we have anyway? Why choose those items? Because the example used Christianity. But we could also take away the Buddha, nirvana, and the like, or whatever one identifies with.

Metacrock wrote:You can't take them away because you can't take away being itself.
I would accept this, pending review of whether one is reducing "being itself" to mental constructions of God and Jesus or whether one is finding "being itself" through God and Jesus. It's a subtle difference with profound implications. But I suspect you've got it. Anything, including God, that we can choose or lose, is not true being. It is an illusion. An idol. It's like the saying about finding Buddha on the road. You have to kill him. Otherwise you were just grasping at another idea. God must die to find God. Jesus must die to find Jesus. The Buddha must die to find the Buddha. We must die to find ourselves.
I see. that's pretty profound man.
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Re: What is left? (something to ponder)

Post by Metacrock » Mon May 23, 2011 8:40 am

fleetmouse wrote:Beautiful, tiny, just beautiful. I want to see this thread take off because that's a wonderfully concise statement about the relationship between the contingent and the universal in religion.

Isn't what's special about Christianity the incarnation, though? The instantiation of the universal and timeless WITHIN the particular and the contingent? Doesn't Christ work as a bridge? I think I'm developing more of an appreciation for the contingent elements of the Christian mythos (I'm not asserting it's "untrue" merely because I'm using the word mythos), and how they function as humanizing elements... there's something very cold and inhuman about the transcendent, the thing that's supposed to be the goal of all this Eastern-ish winnowing away of the architecture of the self and its story.

Is it possible that some or all of the meaning we create for ourselves is in those "junk" layers? And that when we get rid of that, there's no "there" there? Isn't it an attempt to get outside of history and context, and isn't history and context where we create or find meaning? Isn't "self" (not as a reified hard thing but as a dynamic and changing process) something valuable?

Of course it's possible to get TOO trapped in the particulars of a myth - witness those poor bastards waiting for the rapture on Saturday. :-(

Tiny's observation doesn't take away form the incarnation it just means that there's more to it than just words on paper. The doctrines of Christianity must be experienced. The Trinity is not a formula it's a reality.
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Re: What is left? (something to ponder)

Post by mdsimpson92 » Mon May 23, 2011 12:56 pm

fleetmouse wrote:Is it possible that some or all of the meaning we create for ourselves is in those "junk" layers? And that when we get rid of that, there's no "there" there? Isn't it an attempt to get outside of history and context, and isn't history and context where we create or find meaning? Isn't "self" (not as a reified hard thing but as a dynamic and changing process) something valuable?

Of course it's possible to get TOO trapped in the particulars of a myth - witness those poor bastards waiting for the rapture on Saturday.
Partially agree with you on the Christ thing. But those waiting for the rapture definitely were dealing with the Book of Revelation much more literally than the allegory that it should be. Actually the second half of Revelation actually reminds me of the Divine Comedy what with its massive symbolism and references. By the way, personal favorite is the Puratorio.
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Re: What is left? (something to ponder)

Post by Metacrock » Mon May 23, 2011 4:00 pm

mdsimpson92 wrote:
fleetmouse wrote:Is it possible that some or all of the meaning we create for ourselves is in those "junk" layers? And that when we get rid of that, there's no "there" there? Isn't it an attempt to get outside of history and context, and isn't history and context where we create or find meaning? Isn't "self" (not as a reified hard thing but as a dynamic and changing process) something valuable?

Of course it's possible to get TOO trapped in the particulars of a myth - witness those poor bastards waiting for the rapture on Saturday.
Partially agree with you on the Christ thing. But those waiting for the rapture definitely were dealing with the Book of Revelation much more literally than the allegory that it should be. Actually the second half of Revelation actually reminds me of the Divine Comedy what with its massive symbolism and references. By the way, personal favorite is the Puratorio.

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Re: What is left? (something to ponder)

Post by mdsimpson92 » Mon May 23, 2011 5:36 pm

fleetmouse wrote:Beautiful, tiny, just beautiful. I want to see this thread take off because that's a wonderfully concise statement about the relationship between the contingent and the universal in religion.

Isn't what's special about Christianity the incarnation, though? The instantiation of the universal and timeless WITHIN the particular and the contingent? Doesn't Christ work as a bridge? I think I'm developing more of an appreciation for the contingent elements of the Christian mythos (I'm not asserting it's "untrue" merely because I'm using the word mythos), and how they function as humanizing elements... there's something very cold and inhuman about the transcendent, the thing that's supposed to be the goal of all this Eastern-ish winnowing away of the architecture of the self and its story.

Is it possible that some or all of the meaning we create for ourselves is in those "junk" layers? And that when we get rid of that, there's no "there" there? Isn't it an attempt to get outside of history and context, and isn't history and context where we create or find meaning? Isn't "self" (not as a reified hard thing but as a dynamic and changing process) something valuable?
I think I see where you are going but can you go into more detail of what you are trying to get at?

Also, Meta, thanks for the post on your blog.
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Re: What is left? (something to ponder)

Post by Metacrock » Mon May 23, 2011 7:26 pm

Also, Meta, thanks for the post on your blog.
sure. I enjoyed it. :mrgreen:
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