I know that's not how you self-identify with your worldview, but that's the consequences of the statements that you make about reality. You say that we are to the Absolute as waves are to the ocean. To me, that's idolatry, and a "pious and belittling judgment" of who I am in my relation to ALLAH. I'm not just saying that to be argumentative. It's the reason why I first objected to your dialogue and agreed with Person A. You are totally denying my ability to come to terms with the Absolute through the pathway of God-consciousness that is open to me and which characterizes my self identity and the meaning, purpose and value of every aspect of my Reality. You are passing judgment on me and committing the ultimate offront to my sensibilities.tinythinker wrote:You are correct that anything we say about the divine is less accurate than saying nothing at all. However, again, filtered through your assumptions and sensibilities, I don't see a reflection of what I am trying to convey. The idea that making an observation and having an opinion, let alone giving parables or riddles to inspire new perspectives, is tantamount to idolatry and passing pious and belittling judgements is nowhere near where I am coming from.
Now, it so happens that I'm not sore about it. I don't despise you as a result. I can appreciate why you have that perspective. But I can't deny how your assertion of the Absolute and your way of being affects the values and notions that are consequences of my own God-consciousness. If you are right, then you are effectively saying I'm just self-delusional and entirely egotistical. Heh, I kind of think you are right, but the sense in which I think I am self-delusional and entirely egotistical is a magnification of ALLAH and His Attributes - attributes which you judge as being illegitimate.
If you tell me that you aren't judging my approach to the Absolute and you allow me my approach and you have yours; doesn't matter. That's not the point. In fact, that's the one thing that really does irritate me. lol. You should just say I'm wrong. That you don't is incredibly idolatrous, insulting and judgmental.
I'm not quite sure you can appreciate why???
I'm not lying to you, I'm not just being argumentative. I'm being completely honest with you.
Again...I can deal with it, and I don't have hard feelings towards you. But it is what it is, man.
Heh, it's all existential angst.I am sorry that I am unable to translate and convey my intended meaning in a fashion that would allow for more fruitful dialogue, but I am not sure how to translate it into the frame of reference--the kind of strict objectivist linear positivism, or whatever it is--that you keep injecting into the discussion. That isn't a criticism of your point of view, but an admission of inadequacy on my part. Perhaps I should honor where we do agree and seem to be on the same page, about the futility of discussing how to approach God. As per you request, maybe you and I should no longer try to talk about God, at least not with each other. I have no wish to cause injury or offense or to generate needless antagonism. Neither was it my wish to stoke or display arrogance.
I feel the same, btw. I can't compell you to believe what I believe about reality. In the sense that I was totally misrepresenting your views, that's inevitable and also regrettable. It was also kinda my point. But for every way that I say, "I get what you mean" obvious refers to what *I* get about what I understand you meaning according to my categories of meaning. I mean, we've been around enough of that whole post-modern truth, language is fuzzy, blah blah blah.
In my beliefs, you are entirely entitled to your beliefs; the extent to which I violated that here wasn't a personal attack but a demonstration of how representation is domination - your dialogue was all representation and that's why I considered it a failure to justify you siding with Person B; he was the one representing Person A, not vice versa.
I know I do the same thing. This goes back to what I said about how we necessarily judge others. Therefore I only intend to be myself and relate to others according to what I believe is right and moral (Golden Rule, etc.).
Thanks for the venue and the inspiration to contribute. Since I only want to be myself and relate to others according to my sense of righteousness, I can't think you have any less desire to be as you want to be as authentically as possible. Since we are on a discussion board, I interact in this manner. I take it as consent that we allow ourselve to be represented/dominated so we might learn something about ourselves according to what others see in us.I apologize to anyone who feels put upon by my attempt to share my perspective, and I am happy for anyone who benefited from it. Thanks to Sgt Thomas for offering a different perspective, as I don't lay any claim to realizing enlightenment or to attaining infallibilty. I hope others can offer Sarge more in this thread, as I suspect that when properly unpacked it will contribute greatly to the insights of this topic.