atheists are now making another mhuge mistake

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

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Re: atheists are now making another mhuge mistake

Post by Metacrock » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:24 pm

Metacrock wrote:I have had it with wasting my time taling to idiots who can't think and can't understand then they never listen to anything I say. screw them.

after all the arguments. even some of the atheists admit they don't get it. then this Alex somebody says "Thanks for your post but please, what good can philosophy do? Or: what can philosophy do?

Its really just a way of organizing and categorizing thoughts. The only reason to read philosophy books is to find out what other people call the thoughts and to find out how they categorize them."

it's so ideological. so blind, just makes me sick.
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Re: atheists are now making another mhuge mistake

Post by QuantumTroll » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:34 am

Perhaps you should approach the discussion with atheists with the goal of achieving a mutual understanding. You used to be an atheist, but that does not necessarily mean that you understand our perspective today. If your book is intended to be read by atheists, then you should really try to figure out what we think. I've been trying to help by explaining my thoughts on things, and you could explain (or teach) what your beliefs entail.

For example, you've been going on about how we're arguing against a strawman God, i.e. the "magical man in the sky". I think we only do that in discussions with Christians who believe that sort of God. In discussions with you, on the other hand, I've been trying to explain that your God is not only the Ground of Being, but has some additional properties as well. I know you probably disagree with this, so maybe you could explain why the Ground of Being gives life depth and meaning. I'm also interested in whether you understand the atheist's perspective of where these apparently transcendent qualities come from. If you don't see how the atheist perspective makes sense, please ask for an explanation rather than dismissing it as ideological blindness. Heck, maybe you'll even end up pointing out a gross inconsistency that I can't answer :)

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Re: atheists are now making another mhuge mistake

Post by Metacrock » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:02 am

QuantumTroll wrote:Perhaps you should approach the discussion with atheists with the goal of achieving a mutual understanding. You used to be an atheist, but that does not necessarily mean that you understand our perspective today. If your book is intended to be read by atheists, then you should really try to figure out what we think. I've been trying to help by explaining my thoughts on things, and you could explain (or teach) what your beliefs
entail.
there is nothing in being an atheist that should make you a bad philosopher. There is no atheistic reason why they should dump on philosophy and refuse to learn anything about it and love empiricism and hate logic. when I was an atheist I was never an empiricist!






For example, you've been going on about how we're arguing against a strawman God, i.e. the "magical man in the sky". I think we only do that in discussions with Christians who believe that sort of God.
they do it with me all the time. They totally resist learnign anything about any other view. well some. I'm not saying all.

In discussions with you, on the other hand, I've been trying to explain that your God is not only the Ground of Being, but has some additional properties as well. I know you probably disagree with this, so maybe you could explain why the Ground of Being gives life depth and meaning.

there is not a separate entity called "the ground of being." saying God is the ground of being is like saying God is first cause; whatever that is. whatever the ground of being is, that's God. Now I have my own ideas about it, and they certainly must differ from others.

why it gives meaning is because it created what is according to a purpose.So that purpose is the meaning. Just as the content of speech is the meaning of that speech act.

I'm also interested in whether you understand the atheist's perspective of where these apparently transcendent qualities come from. If you don't see how the atheist perspective makes sense, please ask for an explanation rather than dismissing it as ideological blindness. Heck, maybe you'll even end up pointing out a gross inconsistency that I can't answer :)

at other times people tell me there is no "atheist perspective." there's no card carrying athist with the official position. there are atheists and they have their own individual ideas and most of the time they don't make sense becasue they tend to be people who like to learn about philosophy or ideas so they just repeat the mistakes of bad philosophers.
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Re: atheists are now making another mhuge mistake

Post by Antimatter » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:52 pm

Metacrock wrote:there is nothing in being an atheist that should make you a bad philosopher. There is no atheistic reason why they should dump on philosophy and refuse to learn anything about it and love empiricism and hate logic. when I was an atheist I was never an empiricist!
Just a minor nitpick: philosophy does not necessarily imply non-empiricism. Empiricism itself is a branch of epistemology. :)

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Re: atheists are now making another mhuge mistake

Post by Metacrock » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:29 pm

Antimatter wrote:
Metacrock wrote:there is nothing in being an atheist that should make you a bad philosopher. There is no atheistic reason why they should dump on philosophy and refuse to learn anything about it and love empiricism and hate logic. when I was an atheist I was never an empiricist!
Just a minor nitpick: philosophy does not necessarily imply non-empiricism. Empiricism itself is a branch of epistemology. :)

Yes. quite true. but that is the irnony because it was an atheist who said to me yesterday on carm that philosophy is useless, this was in the same diatribe in which he defended empiricism.
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Re: atheists are now making another mhuge mistake

Post by Antimatter » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:26 pm

Metacrock wrote:Yes. quite true. but that is the irnony because it was an atheist who said to me yesterday on carm that philosophy is useless, this was in the same diatribe in which he defended empiricism.
Unless he was referring to a particular strain of philosophy, he just doesn't know what he's talking about. You should suggest that he go read a book about naturalistic philosophy.

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Re: atheists are now making another mhuge mistake

Post by Metacrock » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:30 pm

Antimatter wrote:
Metacrock wrote:Yes. quite true. but that is the irnony because it was an atheist who said to me yesterday on carm that philosophy is useless, this was in the same diatribe in which he defended empiricism.
Unless he was referring to a particular strain of philosophy, he just doesn't know what he's talking about. You should suggest that he go read a book about naturalistic philosophy.

I think this particular atheist doesn't know what he's talking about.

Ironically on CARM, different atheist, but same time that the empiricism argument is going on another one says "even if God appeared before me I would not believe my senses." I think that was hatsoff. I'll check. But how ironic can you get? yes it was hatsoff, not the guy who said all philosophy is crap, but the main one harping on empiricism.

(1) empiricism Hip hip who ray!

(2) If it supports God I wont believe empirical evidence.
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Re: atheists are now making another mhuge mistake

Post by Antimatter » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:49 pm

Metacrock wrote:Ironically on CARM, different atheist, but same time that the empiricism argument is going on another one says "even if God appeared before me I would not believe my senses." I think that was hatsoff. I'll check. But how ironic can you get? yes it was hatsoff, not the guy who said all philosophy is crap, but the main one harping on empiricism.
I wonder if this is just a miscommunication. If god appeared in front of me, and I were reasonably certain I wasn't dreaming or under the effect of some hallucinogen, I'd be an immediate convert. I can't imagine Hatsoff disagreeing with that.

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Re: atheists are now making another mhuge mistake

Post by KR Wordgazer » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:31 pm

Antimatter wrote:
Metacrock wrote:Ironically on CARM, different atheist, but same time that the empiricism argument is going on another one says "even if God appeared before me I would not believe my senses." I think that was hatsoff. I'll check. But how ironic can you get? yes it was hatsoff, not the guy who said all philosophy is crap, but the main one harping on empiricism.
I wonder if this is just a miscommunication. If god appeared in front of me, and I were reasonably certain I wasn't dreaming or under the effect of some hallucinogen, I'd be an immediate convert. I can't imagine Hatsoff disagreeing with that.
Well, you'd probably start believing there was a god. That wouldn't actually make you a convert,though. A convert is someone who surrenders his life, putting all of his faith and trust in said god. :)
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Re: atheists are now making another mhuge mistake

Post by Antimatter » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:53 pm

KR Wordgazer wrote:Well, you'd probably start believing there was a god. That wouldn't actually make you a convert,though. A convert is someone who surrenders his life, putting all of his faith and trust in said god. :)
If the god of the cosmos had enough interest to visit this pale blue dot out of all the countless galaxies out there just to make an appearance for insignificant me, you better believe I'd convert.

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