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Re: Miracles (for Meta)

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:50 am
by Metacrock
Tyrrho wrote:
Metacrock wrote:the evidential organization of the committee is a affidavit. Their function is to document the facts that why they are independent of the Vatican. They have no priests on the committee they are an outside body, the have skeptics on the committee and they makes their findings and screen out whom they will before the chruch people see them.
Fine. I would like to see what the committee has to say about a man growing new lungs overnight.

Me too. the one committee guy I spoke with said he's seen the Xrays and they do exist and they are real. Of course that assumes he's not lying. He could be of course. I have no real reason to believe he is. The problem is that miracle is the saint making miracle of St Teresa (the other St. Teresa) and not the Lourdes committee, although they use the same rules and many of the same people. But the Lourdes guy can't get the evidence on the saint making committee. They are harder to reach.

Re: Miracles (for Meta)

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:53 pm
by Tyrrho
Metacrock wrote:
Tyrrho wrote:
Metacrock wrote:the evidential organization of the committee is a affidavit. Their function is to document the facts that why they are independent of the Vatican. They have no priests on the committee they are an outside body, the have skeptics on the committee and they makes their findings and screen out whom they will before the chruch people see them.
Fine. I would like to see what the committee has to say about a man growing new lungs overnight.

Me too. the one committee guy I spoke with said he's seen the Xrays and they do exist and they are real. Of course that assumes he's not lying. He could be of course. I have no real reason to believe he is. The problem is that miracle is the saint making miracle of St Teresa (the other St. Teresa) and not the Lourdes committee, although they use the same rules and many of the same people. But the Lourdes guy can't get the evidence on the saint making committee. They are harder to reach.
Even aside from the possiblity that the committee guy was lying, I would like to know how they rule out the possibility that the doctor was mistaken or misunderstood when he said the guy grew new lungs. I don't know how x-rays could distinguish between lungs that are "new" and lungs that are "healthy". And I can easily imagine a doctor saying, "It's like he has new lungs", and some believer taking that literally.

Re: Miracles (for Meta)

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:27 am
by Metacrock
Tyrrho wrote: Even aside from the possiblity that the committee guy was lying, I would like to know how they rule out the possibility that the doctor was mistaken or misunderstood when he said the guy grew new lungs. I don't know how x-rays could distinguish between lungs that are "new" and lungs that are "healthy". And I can easily imagine a doctor saying, "It's like he has new lungs", and some believer taking that literally.
you can see scar tissue on lungs in Xrays. TB leaves scar tissue. The scar tissue disappears overnight then it's like getting a new pair of lungs. He didn't die. He was expected to die that night. He given last rights, in the morning he was fine.

Re: Miracles (for Meta)

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:36 am
by Tyrrho
Metacrock wrote:
Tyrrho wrote: Even aside from the possiblity that the committee guy was lying, I would like to know how they rule out the possibility that the doctor was mistaken or misunderstood when he said the guy grew new lungs. I don't know how x-rays could distinguish between lungs that are "new" and lungs that are "healthy". And I can easily imagine a doctor saying, "It's like he has new lungs", and some believer taking that literally.
you can see scar tissue on lungs in Xrays. TB leaves scar tissue. The scar tissue disappears overnight then it's like getting a new pair of lungs. He didn't die. He was expected to die that night. He given last rights, in the morning he was fine.
So if you see something on x-rays, it must be scar tissue? Couldn't be something else mistaken for scar tissue?

Re: Miracles (for Meta)

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:53 pm
by Kane Augustus
Meta,

Why does the spontaneous healing of scar tissue in the lungs have to be miraculous? I think that is the question that needs to be answered before the conversation with Tyrrho can advance any further.

Re: Miracles (for Meta)

Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:46 pm
by mdsimpson92
Kane Augustus wrote:Why does the spontaneous healing of scar tissue in the lungs have to be miraculous? I think that is the question that needs to be answered before the conversation with Tyrrho can advance any further.
I'm personally hung up on the definition of miraculous. Granted I normally don't find the terms "nature" or "supernature" very meaningful. Where does the word miracle come from. I may remember one or two instances where the term "miraculous signs" come up and I know those works are long before the concept of "supernature" ever came around. Perhaps a better synonym would be "anomolous" or "incredible."