do you guys think this is as evil as I?

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do you guys think this is as evil as I?

Post by Metacrock » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:18 pm

here's a post on carm I think this is the most evil thing I've seen on a message board.

By Brentgomaes

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.p ... ost4239930


the whole deal:
suggest the models we consult are those bases upon which we evaluate the worth of other sentient beings that have feelings and feel pain. Often, we slaughter such beings for reasons having nothing to do with safety or social order.

Do we slaughter cows because they commit horrible crimes, or to make sure we have available the option of grabbing something quick at McDonald's when we decide we'd rather not cook tonight? That's called killing a sentient being for reasons other than justice, and we do it by the thousands every single day.

Do we euthanize domesticated cats and dogs by the thousands every day for reasons having nothing to do with safety and social order? Yes.

Once again, you will have to demonstrate what it is about humans that makes them more worthy to live than cows, before you insist that treating human repeat violent offenders as cattle is an unacceptable immorality.

My logic would justify killing humans merely for the sake of convenience, but I don't need to push it that far. If we kill certain sentient beings purely for convenience and see no immorality, we have no reason to believe that killing other sentient beings where they have already proven their danger to others, is immoral.

Hence, the basis for evaluating human worth should be similar to basis upon which we value or devalue the lives of other sentient beings. If killing them would create a greater good than evil, kill them. What constitutes a greater good should be evaluated by the same criteria we use to evaluate whether killing other sentient beings produces a greater good.

When we slaughter cows for fast food hamburgers, are we creating a greater good justifying said slaughter?

When we approve of the local pet shelter euthanizing unclaimed cats and dogs, are we creating a greater good justifying said killings?

When we execute the person who is doing time for their second violent offense conviction, are we creating a greater good justifying said execution?

You cannot criticize my model if you have no defense for your own current preferred model. If you cannot explain why humans should be spared the death penalty more than other sentient beings we routinely kill, then you are without evidence that humans "deserve" life more than other lower animals. Once again, at the end of the day, the anti-death penalty crowd has nothing more the unexplained non-defensible non-answer "but they're human!?!?!", as if this was supposed to be some show stopper halting us intellectuals dead in our tracks. I think not.

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what would stop the next guy from pushing it that far?
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Re: do you guys think this is as evil as I?

Post by Metacrock » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:21 pm

I think this guy might be a republican.
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Re: do you guys think this is as evil as I?

Post by mdsimpson92 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:26 am

Metacrock wrote: what would stop the next guy from pushing it that far?
Interesting, also oddly utilitarian, sounds almost like an even more extreme version of Peter Singer. But yeah, pretty screwed up.

But like those conclusions, he is consistent (even if the idea is sociopathic and disgusting).
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Re: do you guys think this is as evil as I?

Post by Metacrock » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:54 am

mdsimpson92 wrote:
Metacrock wrote: what would stop the next guy from pushing it that far?
Interesting, also oddly utilitarian, sounds almost like an even more extreme version of Peter Singer. But yeah, pretty screwed up.

But like those conclusions, he is consistent (even if the idea is sociopathic and disgusting).
Consistency by itself is the thingie of some kind of minds what I don't wan to be. :mrgreen:

the hobgoblin of little minds?

He's Ultil on steroids. But even J.S. Mill would see the distinction in assuming the worth of a human life is equal to that of a cow, or can only be assessed in terms of prudential value.

that same guy tried to tell me that I don' t love Jesus becuase I want to be an intellectual.
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Re: do you guys think this is as evil as I?

Post by mdsimpson92 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:50 am

Metacrock wrote: He's Ultil on steroids. But even J.S. Mill would see the distinction in assuming the worth of a human life is equal to that of a cow, or can only be assessed in terms of prudential value.

that same guy tried to tell me that I don' t love Jesus becuase I want to be an intellectual.
How lovely. He sounds like a charmer.
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Re: do you guys think this is as evil as I?

Post by fleetmouse » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:40 pm

I started talking to this guy then gave up. He started a thread about how a stable society just might be dependent on having extremely draconian laws, and asked why "valuing human life" should be a consideration in not having brutal repressive laws (or words to that effect).

So I suggested that valuing a stable society presupposes valuing human life. After some huffing and puffing he replied:

"Or we can start at the beginning, and ask each other on what basis do we value human life, which I think is a logical starting point, since it is the way you value life that presumably directs your belief regarding the death penalty. Ready?"

Frankly I think this guy is a Christian troll because his goal seems to be to put atheists on the spot as to how they justify valuing human life at all. The stuff about crime and punishment, Joseph Tainter's ideas etc. is just window dressing meant to add a veneer of intellectual respectability.

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Re: do you guys think this is as evil as I?

Post by mdsimpson92 » Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:05 pm

fleetmouse wrote: "Or we can start at the beginning, and ask each other on what basis do we value human life, which I think is a logical starting point, since it is the way you value life that presumably directs your belief regarding the death penalty. Ready?"

Frankly I think this guy is a Christian troll because his goal seems to be to put atheists on the spot as to how they justify valuing human life at all. The stuff about crime and punishment, Joseph Tainter's ideas etc. is just window dressing meant to add a veneer of intellectual respectability.
On one level, I repeat myself "what a charmer." This guy sounds like he's just there to rant.
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Re: do you guys think this is as evil as I?

Post by Metacrock » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:54 am

fleetmouse wrote:I started talking to this guy then gave up. He started a thread about how a stable society just might be dependent on having extremely draconian laws, and asked why "valuing human life" should be a consideration in not having brutal repressive laws (or words to that effect).

So I suggested that valuing a stable society presupposes valuing human life. After some huffing and puffing he replied:

"Or we can start at the beginning, and ask each other on what basis do we value human life, which I think is a logical starting point, since it is the way you value life that presumably directs your belief regarding the death penalty. Ready?"

Frankly I think this guy is a Christian troll because his goal seems to be to put atheists on the spot as to how they justify valuing human life at all. The stuff about crime and punishment, Joseph Tainter's ideas etc. is just window dressing meant to add a veneer of intellectual respectability.
Interesting. You think he's a Christian. I think he's an atheist. Not because atheists are closet ax murderers but just by default because I think he's kind who is basically insane and can't believe in anything but his down desires. Yes I kow Tainter's ideas as iniodic as his.

I really tore him apart I think. I began showing that his crusade against emotions was emotional. then change tunes and began trying embed his views in legal theory. i argued that legal theory is not about ethics. law is not ethics. He began to back away from that (I've only taken one class in law that was joint class with law students and seminary students studying ethics and law--I knew that would came on handy). the proff of that law class hated me because I made the Hitcherhicker's guide joke about theft is property when was being serious.

Anyway this guys is a troll, whatever stripe. Classic trolls, get attention.
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Re: do you guys think this is as evil as I?

Post by Metacrock » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:58 am

mdsimpson92 wrote:
fleetmouse wrote: "Or we can start at the beginning, and ask each other on what basis do we value human life, which I think is a logical starting point, since it is the way you value life that presumably directs your belief regarding the death penalty. Ready?"

Frankly I think this guy is a Christian troll because his goal seems to be to put atheists on the spot as to how they justify valuing human life at all. The stuff about crime and punishment, Joseph Tainter's ideas etc. is just window dressing meant to add a veneer of intellectual respectability.
On one level, I repeat myself "what a charmer." This guy sounds like he's just there to rant.
yup. he kept trying to say that emotions can't prove things,so basing human value on emotions is wrong becuase emotions are no basis for decisions. Thus we can base human worth on what we can get out of people economically. I started talking about the injustice of child labor he began talking bout using children as prostitutes. I said "I'm talking about the Marxist theory of labor power, not screwing children" then he shut up. fruit cake!

I showed that just because you dis-value emotion as a decision making process that doesn't mean the alternative is economics. that's when he began trying to ground his theory is law.
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Re: do you guys think this is as evil as I?

Post by fleetmouse » Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:42 pm

I'm trying to make better use of my time by not engaging with timewasting trolls like "Brent".

Image

Don't wanna be that guy ^^ anymore. I'll engage if something or someone engages my curiosity but I'm tired of endless ignorant web-bickering.

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