help me keep intellectual standards high

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Metacrock
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help me keep intellectual standards high

Post by Metacrock » Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:47 pm

please discuss: http://www.livescience.com/16814-animal ... point.html

This so called "study" alleges to find that animals know right from wrong. My fear is that the morons doing the story don't know what moral decision making is. so hat do we think moral decision making is?

hat is that "study" measuring? I think this is also a case of people calling yellow journalism :studies."

My ethical decision making is virtue oriented and deontological. btw who has read Alisdair McIntyre?
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Re: help me keep intellectual standards high

Post by sgttomas » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:41 pm

I think that it's possible animals possess moral awareness though we are not often able to communicate with them.

Why would this be a problem?

Peace,
-sgttomas
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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Re: help me keep intellectual standards high

Post by Metacrock » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:53 pm

sgttomas wrote:I think that it's possible animals possess moral awareness though we are not often able to communicate with them.

Why would this be a problem?

Peace,
-sgttomas
I don't think moral thinking is just rule keeping. I bet you don't either. I think i's an understanding of virtue and requires a world view such that ought's are evokes at the top of the metaphysical hierarchy. zi just don't think too many animals can do that. Maybe Dolphins.

Thestudy linked to basically they just said "the dog looks guilty o he's thinking morally."
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Jim B.
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Re: help me keep intellectual standards high

Post by Jim B. » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:21 pm

Metacrock wrote:please discuss: http://www.livescience.com/16814-animal ... point.html

This so called "study" alleges to find that animals know right from wrong. My fear is that the morons doing the story don't know what moral decision making is. so hat do we think moral decision making is?

hat is that "study" measuring? I think this is also a case of people calling yellow journalism :studies."

My ethical decision making is virtue oriented and deontological. btw who has read Alisdair McIntyre?
Yeah, Moral reasoning is considering reasons for acting that are potentially universalizable and categorical. Many humans can't do that. I doubt many other species can - maybe dolphins and bonobos to some degree.

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Re: help me keep intellectual standards high

Post by met » Sun Nov 29, 2015 2:38 am

Jim B. wrote:
Metacrock wrote:please discuss: http://www.livescience.com/16814-animal ... point.html

This so called "study" alleges to find that animals know right from wrong. My fear is that the morons doing the story don't know what moral decision making is. so hat do we think moral decision making is?

hat is that "study" measuring? I think this is also a case of people calling yellow journalism :studies."

My ethical decision making is virtue oriented and deontological. btw who has read Alisdair McIntyre?
Yeah, Moral reasoning is considering reasons for acting that are potentially universalizable and categorical. Many humans can't do that. I doubt many other species can - maybe dolphins and bonobos to some degree.
I will have to play Devils, or non-human species, advocate here, it seems..... Jim, if rats wont take food that causes a second group of rats to receive electric shocks in what sense Is that not universalizing?

This thread almost suggests a bias here, almost like 'the ability to say it is better than the mere ability to do it' - is that what you guys mean? I'm not sure I understand your objections.....
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
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Re: help me keep intellectual standards high

Post by Metacrock » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:32 am

Jim B. wrote:
Metacrock wrote:please discuss: http://www.livescience.com/16814-animal ... point.html

This so called "study" alleges to find that animals know right from wrong. My fear is that the morons doing the story don't know what moral decision making is. so hat do we think moral decision making is?

hat is that "study" measuring? I think this is also a case of people calling yellow journalism :studies."

My ethical decision making is virtue oriented and deontological. btw who has read Alisdair McIntyre?
Yeah, Moral reasoning is considering reasons for acting that are potentially universalizable and categorical. Many humans can't do that. I doubt many other species can - maybe dolphins and bonobos to some degree.

Jim that's an excellent point.I thought about pointing that out.
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Re: help me keep intellectual standards high

Post by Metacrock » Sun Nov 29, 2015 5:35 am

met wrote:
Jim B. wrote:
Metacrock wrote:please discuss: http://www.livescience.com/16814-animal ... point.html

This so called "study" alleges to find that animals know right from wrong. My fear is that the morons doing the story don't know what moral decision making is. so hat do we think moral decision making is?

hat is that "study" measuring? I think this is also a case of people calling yellow journalism :studies."

My ethical decision making is virtue oriented and deontological. btw who has read Alisdair McIntyre?
Yeah, Moral reasoning is considering reasons for acting that are potentially universalizable and categorical. Many humans can't do that. I doubt many other species can - maybe dolphins and bonobos to some degree.
I will have to play Devils, or non-human species, advocate here, it seems..... Jim, if rats wont take food that causes a second group of rats to receive electric shocks in what sense Is that not universalizing?

This thread almost suggests a bias here, almost like 'the ability to say it is better than the mere ability to do it' - is that what you guys mean? I'm not sure I understand your objections.....

yes call me biased but I thinking is better than not thinking. people are more important than animals.
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Re: help me keep intellectual standards high

Post by met » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:12 pm

Is thinking what makes people people? Are people with impaired thinking then NOT as important?

It strikes me as a bias towards 'ought' rather than 'is', since I'm not sure you could find much correlation between intelligence (or articulation) and actual moral behavior even in humans, as there are plenty of amoral intellectuals - and that the rats who won't touch the food may be acting far more morally than the researchers who set up the experiments.
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

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Re: help me keep intellectual standards high

Post by Metacrock » Sun Nov 29, 2015 1:54 pm

met wrote:Is thinking what makes people people? Are people with impaired thinking then NOT as important?

It strikes me as a bias towards 'ought' rather than 'is', since I'm not sure you could find much correlation between intelligence (or articulation) and actual moral behavior even in humans, as there are plenty of amoral intellectuals - and that the rats who won't touch the food may be acting far more morally than the researchers who set up the experiments.
I think most humans who unimpaired can understand the concept of being good. Animals can't. At least I have no evidence. of course i did not correlate intelligence with goodness, but to do moral reasoning one must be able to reason. You spoke of correlate intelligence and moral behavior. I'm not talking about behavior but decision making. A dog can exhibit moral behavior without understanding why it's moral.

Nor did I say that intelligence means virtue. It's not enough to just be able to reason morally but it's a start.
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Re: help me keep intellectual standards high

Post by Jim B. » Sun Nov 29, 2015 4:02 pm

met wrote:
Jim B. wrote:
Metacrock wrote:please discuss: http://www.livescience.com/16814-animal ... point.html

This so called "study" alleges to find that animals know right from wrong. My fear is that the morons doing the story don't know what moral decision making is. so hat do we think moral decision making is?

hat is that "study" measuring? I think this is also a case of people calling yellow journalism :studies."

My ethical decision making is virtue oriented and deontological. btw who has read Alisdair McIntyre?
Yeah, Moral reasoning is considering reasons for acting that are potentially universalizable and categorical. Many humans can't do that. I doubt many other species can - maybe dolphins and bonobos to some degree.
I will have to play Devils, or non-human species, advocate here, it seems..... Jim, if rats wont take food that causes a second group of rats to receive electric shocks in what sense Is that not universalizing?

This thread almost suggests a bias here, almost like 'the ability to say it is better than the mere ability to do it' - is that what you guys mean? I'm not sure I understand your objections.....
But there's no particular reason to think that's anything more than stimulus-response? I tend to think of morality as having to do with the understanding and reasoning over principles of action. We have to think of ourselves from outside of ourselves in terms of the principles one might act on as opposed to what I want to act on. So maybe morality requires language? I dunno. That could be why toddlers and the severely mentally impaired etc and members of other species are not held morally accountable. Some think that this position is specieist. Depends on if you think we're the only species capable of language proper.

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