The Greatest Commandment

[The Pixie]

No, the fragment is included in all the Synoptics and so presented in three different contexts, making it all the much more complex.

But we can still speculate and correlate and stuff....

Wow, a fundamental instruction from God, and all we can do is speculate as to what it means. Maybe God needs to learn to communicate better.

[The Pixie]

Sure. Out of pride or self-worship.

Those are just clichés. What does it mean to be too proud to love God? Is that like thinking you are better than the all-powerful, all-knowing God? Who self-worships? Do you think people pray to themselves? Hold little ceremonies where they sing hymns to them selves, drink wine that symbolises their own blood?

That could be a primary decision and form that, the person 'weights' the different possible kinds of evidence for and against God, and one conceives of 'God' in such ways as to ratify that earlier decision.

Ah, right. All those evil atheists. They are so proud, and do that self-worshiping thing. That is the only possible reason for them not worshiping God. The dismal lack of evidence and internal inconsistencies have nothing to do with it.

I thought we'd agree, though, that trying is good enough?

So trying not to murder and steal is good enough? They are, afterall, lesser commandments.

Anyway, I was never thinking of the two great commandments as being like "Do this or else!" From everything I've written so far, I thought it would have been abundantly clear that I don't thinkthose great commandments are things that getting a "pass" on would apply to.

I understood this to mean the exact opposite:

"Do you mean immoral? No, I don't think so, at least to the extent that a belief, or lack of belief, is not due to an immoral action/decision. If one honestly does not believe in God after judging the issue based on what you honestly believe are the criteria that would apply."

[Jim B.]

Those are just clichés. What does it mean to be too proud to love God? Is that like thinking you are better than the all-powerful, all-knowing God? Who self-worships? Do you think people pray to themselves? Hold little ceremonies where they sing hymns to them selves, drink wine that symbolises their own blood?

You asked if I could imagine a scenario in which someone deliberately hardens their heart against the idea of God. This is a scenario that I could imagine. Cold you imagine such a scenario? The second entry under "worship" in Webster's New World Dictionary reads: extreme devotion or intense love or admiration of any kind.

Ah, right. All those evil atheists. They are so proud, and do that self-worshiping thing. That is the only possible reason for them not worshiping God. The dismal lack of evidence and internal inconsistencies have nothing to do with it.

Where did I ever say that that is the only reason? It's one scenario. You're doing the very thing you accuse me of doing, lumping everything I write into your cliched theist barrel.

So trying not to murder and steal is good enough? They are, after all, lesser commandments.

No, for the fourth or fifth time now, I'm saying I don't think the great commandments are moral or morally binding in the same way as injunctions against murder and theft.

Anyway, I was never thinking of the two great commandments as being like "Do this or else!" From everything I've written so far, I thought it would have been abundantly clear that I don't thinkthose great commandments are things that getting a "pass" on would apply to.

I understood this to mean the exact opposite:

"Do you mean immoral? No, I don't think so, at least to the extent that a belief, or lack of belief, is not due to an immoral action/decision. If one honestly does not believe in God after judging the issue based on what you honestly believe are the criteria that would apply."[/quote]

Right, so not following the one of the great commandments wouldn't be morally evil in itself. An action or decision that might result in not following them could be morally evil.

[met]

No, the fragment is included in all the Synoptics and so presented in three different contexts, making it all the much more complex.

But we can still speculate and correlate and stuff....

Wow, a fundamental instruction from God, and all we can do is speculate as to what it means. Maybe God needs to learn to communicate better.

Again, it is what what is is -- it doesn't have to be what you expect -- and it takes the form of narrative rather than "instruction."

Maybe God doesn't just hand out orders, isn't part of (what Michel Foucault described as) this repressive, militarized/bureaucratized industrialized culture. But then again, maybe it's just as well for you if he or she isn't...

[The Pixie]

You asked if I could imagine a scenario in which someone deliberately hardens their heart against the idea of God. This is a scenario that I could imagine....

I asked if you could think of a scenario, and by that I meant a scenario with some basis is reality. You appear to have taken that to mean I am asking about some imaginary situation, and so chose to emphasise the word "imagine" twice.

You asked if I could imagine a scenario in which someone deliberately hardens their heart against the idea of God. This is a scenario that I could imagine. Cold you imagine such a scenario? The second entry under "worship" in Webster's New World Dictionary reads: extreme devotion or intense love or admiration of any kind.

So you are talking about someone having extreme devotion to himself? What does that mean? Or someone who loves himself intensely? Or someone who admires himself? This idea that an individual worships himself is a cliche that theists trot out, but I question whether it has any basis in reality. Sure, it is easy to picture someone with a big ego, an over-inflated opinion of himself, perhaps you even know someone like that, but have ever met someone you could (without exageration) say he worships himself? I certainly have not.

Where did I ever say that that is the only reason? It's one scenario. You're doing the very thing you accuse me of doing, lumping everything I write into your cliched theist barrel.

Because you are imagining scenarios with no basis in reality.

No, for the fourth or fifth time now, I'm saying I don't think the great commandments are moral or morally binding in the same way as injunctions against murder and theft.

Not moral or morally binding in the same way? What does that mean? Can you list all the ways there are for something to be moral? Or to be morally binding? Which apply to the greatest commandment?

Right, so not following the one of the great commandments wouldn't be morally evil in itself. An action or decision that might result in not following them could be morally evil.

So the answer to whether it is immoral to not love God is no. That is all you had to say.

Not sure that your qualify means anything. We could say the same of a recipe for rice pudding; it could lead you to steal some rice, which would be immoral, but it might not.