What is consciousness?

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The Pixie
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Re: What is consciousness?

Post by The Pixie » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:16 am

Jim B. wrote:There's the issue of reducibility and there's the issue of emergence. If the latter, is it strong or weak emergence? All theories are vague at this point, especially the emergentist's, which says that given the right kind and degree of complexity, poof! consciousness. No idea of how it could happen or even how it could conceivably happen. Tantamount to magic. At present there's no theoretical framework to even begin to fit empirical findings within, so all we have right now is the nature of the concepts involved. It remains at the philosophical level, not the empirical level until some idea of how empirical findings could even begin to apply.
But it is being researched. Scientists are working to fill in the gaps, and there is empirical work being done right now. See for example:
https://www.sciencealert.com/harvard-sc ... sciousness

Can you point to any work done from a non-materialist perspective? Please do not say that it cannot be done if it is not material, because there must necessarily be some interaction between the material and immaterial, as consciousness is aware of and can affect the material world.

The Pixie
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Re: What is consciousness?

Post by The Pixie » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:56 am

Having read Joe's latest post, I realise there is an issue about what we mean by "reducible". I will just repeat what I posted to Joe on his blog:

Emergence (in this context) claims consciousness arises purely within the brain, there is nothing else involved. If consciousness is strongly emergent is it reducible to brain chemistry? I have been assuming yes, but from this it sound like you would say no. But I think the difference here is how we understand "reducible".

I understood you to be claiming there was a non-material aspect to consciousness. Thus consciousness cannot be reduced to brain chemistry because there is some other component that is involved (whether that is a universal consciousness a soul or whatever). From that, I took reducible to include strong emergence. However, that is contradicted by what you have stated here, so it would be useful if you could clarify.

Jim B.
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Re: What is consciousness?

Post by Jim B. » Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:59 am

The Pixie wrote:
Jim B. wrote:There's the issue of reducibility and there's the issue of emergence. If the latter, is it strong or weak emergence? All theories are vague at this point, especially the emergentist's, which says that given the right kind and degree of complexity, poof! consciousness. No idea of how it could happen or even how it could conceivably happen. Tantamount to magic. At present there's no theoretical framework to even begin to fit empirical findings within, so all we have right now is the nature of the concepts involved. It remains at the philosophical level, not the empirical level until some idea of how empirical findings could even begin to apply.
But it is being researched. Scientists are working to fill in the gaps, and there is empirical work being done right now. See for example:
https://www.sciencealert.com/harvard-sc ... sciousness

Can you point to any work done from a non-materialist perspective? Please do not say that it cannot be done if it is not material, because there must necessarily be some interaction between the material and immaterial, as consciousness is aware of and can affect the material world.
It's not being researched. There isn't a framework in place for a research program. That's what I've been trying to tell you over the past several months. Neuroscientific correlations are being researched. Did you read those links I posted on Joes' blog for you to read?

The Pixie
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Re: What is consciousness?

Post by The Pixie » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:02 am

Jim B. wrote:It's not being researched. There isn't a framework in place for a research program. That's what I've been trying to tell you over the past several months.
It is also what I have been saying. There is no framework, so there is no research. All we have is people saying the materialist view must be wrtong because it has issues, but without even a framework to start looking at how an alternative might address the issues.
Neuroscientific correlations are being researched. Did you read those links I posted on Joes' blog for you to read?
I do not remember seeing any. Was this some time ago? On Metacrock or Cadre?

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met
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Re: What is consciousness?

Post by met » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:45 pm

Okay. So how does that explain all the evidence? I think the emergent consciousness theory, incomplete though it may be, does better, but I will try to keep an open mind.
It grasps at how difficult it is to grasp the nature such ethereal (but intersubjectively real) phenomena such as qualia. Those phenomena, however, are the very essence of consciousness,and those elusive, only-subjective aspects would seem what most people think of as the things such a theory should explain, exactly what most people anticipate a valid model of "consciousness" would actually model (essentially).

If someone says, "well, that's really hard and could well be impossible since there doesn't even seem to be a valid conceptual framework for us to start with nor an obvious way to even begin to construct such a framework," then, at least, they are addressing what seems like the real core of the consciousness problem ....ie "why are there such experiential things as perceptions and subjectivities anyway?" ....ie something quite close to David Chalmer's "hard problem" .... & otherwise, perhaps not.
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
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Re: What is consciousness?

Post by The Pixie » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:50 am

met wrote:If someone says, "well, that's really hard and could well be impossible since there doesn't even seem to be a valid conceptual framework for us to start with nor an obvious way to even begin to construct such a framework," then, at least, they are addressing what seems like the real core of the consciousness problem ...
Really? That reads more like someone giving up because they think it is too hard to even try to me.

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met
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Re: What is consciousness?

Post by met » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:02 am

Well, at least it takes all the phenomena into account; not denying the existence of the subjective, the first-person frame altogether to make the problem seem "solvable? "

That seems a non-solution....
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

The Pixie
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Re: What is consciousness?

Post by The Pixie » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:47 am

met wrote:Well, at least it takes all the phenomena into account; not denying the existence of the subjective, the first-person frame altogether to make the problem seem "solvable? "

That seems a non-solution....
That does seem a non-solution. Is anyone doing that?

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met
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Re: What is consciousness?

Post by met » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:51 am

K, fair enough, but let's allow Jim or Joe to answer here... :?
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

Jim B.
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Re: What is consciousness?

Post by Jim B. » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:13 pm

The Pixie wrote:
met wrote:Well, at least it takes all the phenomena into account; not denying the existence of the subjective, the first-person frame altogether to make the problem seem "solvable? "

That seems a non-solution....
That does seem a non-solution. Is anyone doing that?
Yes. Dennett for one is doing that. He thinks that if you can't reduce the subjective to the objective, then you haven't really explained it. The assumption seems to be that consciousness must fit the standard pattern of scientific reduction. So to sceintifically explain liquidity, you have to appeal to things that are not liquid. You can;t just say things are liquid because they participate in the property of 'the moist.' You have to discharge that property onto things that don;t exhibit that property. Otherwise you're just mystifying wetness. Similarly, the assumption is that to explain consciousness, you have to appeal to non-conscious things. The whole point of a reductionist approach to consciousness is to fully account for it in terms of third person (objective) truths.

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