On God And Hi Providence-Zarovian

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

Moderator: Metacrock

ZAROVE
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:07 pm

On God And Hi Providence-Zarovian

Post by ZAROVE » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:12 pm

TODAY I shall be short in my address, and shall tell of the wonderful providence of God. Our Lord, God, who didst create all things in the Universe, and who doth reign Eternally over his creation, hath made us also for himself, that we may, along with all of the Universe, be at one with his Holy and Divine will, and so doth, in his love for us as his Children, grant us peace and life.

God supplies all things unto us, and bestows upon the world all that would be needful for us. He also created in us the ability to obtain that which we do need and desire, if we walk according to his statutes and in his Holy Will. This is not a cruelty or a dictatorship as some hath vainly said, for God is our Creator, and walking in accordance to his will is walking in accordance to our own true natures, which God hath made in us, and which gives us our true joy.

The Scriptures say that the desire of a righteous man shall be given him, and the fear of the wicked shall befall them. This is true indeed a saying, and our Own Lord did say that whatsoever we shall ask in Prayer shall be given us, and St. James said that we must pray and believe, and we shall receive.

Famously it is written, Ask, and ye Shall receive, Seek, and ye shall find, knock, and it shall be open unto you, and truly this is so.

In life, we get what we focus on, and so we ought focus on what we want, and we ought want that which is beneficial for us, and in accordance to what we where made to be, for only this shall truly fulfil us, and render us both happy and prosperous in the end.

Fear not, for fear focuses our minds as much as hope, and we move in the direction of our focus, so we move toward our fears, if we let them dwell in our minds.

We should rather cast away fear, and focus on the blessings of liberty and righteousness, in all confidence expecting that which we would find desirous, and moving toward this for ourselves.

For in focusing on hat which is desirable, we move toward it, and work to achieve it, and release from ourselves an energy to achieve it, but if we fear, we move toward our fears, instead mentally establishing a pattern of conduct to assure our own failure.

This is a great Lessons for us, to focus upon the law and will fo God, to make it our own, and to then focus in all confidence and trust in our own improvement, and eventual improvement of those around us. We will, if we do these things, find ourselves in the company of like minded folk, both those who on their own where as such, and those whom we had influenced into these thoughts, ad shall find our way established on the road to our intentions.

So much more can be said on this topic, and as ever there are lessons of endless abundance, which shall be covered later in greater depth. (I have oft promised this to no avail, I know, but am lessening such, and will keep my word now).

For now, I know of Gods providence, as I went to the Strawberry Festival, and fun was had, and joy was felt, and I had the time in Gods providence, and all was planned by his divine plan, and established by my own obedience.


I now praise this his providence, and ask others to look for it themselves in doing his will.

Now, I shall close.

In the name of Christ Jesus, Amen.

User avatar
unred typo
Posts: 125
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: Undisclosed location in the eastern USA

Re: On God And Hi Providence-Zarovian

Post by unred typo » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:45 am

The Scriptures say that the desire of a righteous man shall be given him, and the fear of the wicked shall befall them. This is true indeed a saying, and our Own Lord did say that whatsoever we shall ask in Prayer shall be given us, and St. James said that we must pray and believe, and we shall receive.
This is true. But while we shouldn’t focus on our fears, instead of focusing on what we want, shouldn’t we focus on being righteous and on NOT being wicked? :?
The truth will stand with you but man-made doctrines will melt away like cowards in the battle.

User avatar
QuantumTroll
Posts: 1073
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:54 am
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Contact:

Re: On God And Hi Providence-Zarovian

Post by QuantumTroll » Fri Mar 07, 2008 4:21 am

I think we should focus especially on the wants and needs our fellow beings. It is difficult to spend an entire day focusing on one's own desires without (perhaps inadvertently) harming others and making regretful decisions. If, on the other hand, we keep other people in mind throughout the day, and if we act to benefit them, then we can be confident that our day was as good as we could make it. True happiness and prosperity only comes from helping others.

Thanks for the nice OP, Zarove, but I feel that I must point out that God and the Bible say the same things on this topic as other sources (Taoist texts, Dalai Lama, my mother, ...). What you say isn't true because God said it, but because it accurately reflects part of the human condition. Inserting God into this discussion actually serves to cloud the message, since the message is true regardless of God's nature. I would praise the wisdom of previous generations, who saw fit to transmit this wisdom to us for our benefit.

User avatar
Metacrock
Posts: 10046
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:03 am
Location: Dallas
Contact:

Re: On God And Hi Providence-Zarovian

Post by Metacrock » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:23 am

QuantumTroll wrote:I think we should focus especially on the wants and needs our fellow beings. It is difficult to spend an entire day focusing on one's own desires without (perhaps inadvertently) harming others and making regretful decisions. If, on the other hand, we keep other people in mind throughout the day, and if we act to benefit them, then we can be confident that our day was as good as we could make it. True happiness and prosperity only comes from helping others.

Thanks for the nice OP, Zarove, but I feel that I must point out that God and the Bible say the same things on this topic as other sources (Taoist texts, Dalai Lama, my mother, ...). What you say isn't true because God said it, but because it accurately reflects part of the human condition. Inserting God into this discussion actually serves to cloud the message, since the message is true regardless of God's nature. I would praise the wisdom of previous generations, who saw fit to transmit this wisdom to us for our benefit.

why would something true because God said it? how could those be two different things?
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief

ZAROVE
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: On God And Hi Providence-Zarovian

Post by ZAROVE » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:36 am

I think we should focus especially on the wants and needs our fellow beings. It is difficult to spend an entire day focusing on one's own desires without (perhaps inadvertently) harming others and making regretful decisions.


Of course this is true. The Bible also speaks of that, incedentally. However, any given Sermon will only cover a limited amount of ground, so it shoudl be apparent to anyone that I didn't explicitly state every ramification and clause into everythign I write about.

Whereas we shoudl not think only of ourselves, the theme of htis spacific Sermon is that we should learn tot rust hte Providence of God, and shoudl focus on our desired goals, as opposed to letting our fears overtake us.

That said, it woudl be inapropriate in this particular sermon to tell others of the perils of selfishness and how it harms others, in that it owudl distract fromt he point I am making.

I do think your being overcritical, and not really evaluating the point of this particular sermon, though.



If, on the other hand, we keep other people in mind throughout the day, and if we act to benefit them, then we can be confident that our day was as good as we could make it. True happiness and prosperity only comes from helping others.


But if we are trapped in the fears that we instead focus on, we will spend all of our time rinnign form them. And if we do not leanr to let go and trust in God order of things, and his allowances that he has made, and what he provices,a nd isnetad seek security for ourselves, we won't do that.




Thanks for the nice OP, Zarove,

Its a Sermon, not an Opinion Peice.


Trust a Reporter to know the difference.




but I feel that I must point out that God and the Bible say the same things on this topic as other sources (Taoist texts, Dalai Lama, my mother, ...).

Which is relevant how?


I know that you wan tot dsomehow discredit Christianity, but really this argument is a rather weak one and oen I hear too often.

Somehow, if some other culture has a religiosu text that says the same hing, it proves that God couldn't have said it or that its irrleevant,

All that matters to me, though, is that it is true.




What you say isn't true because God said it, but because it accurately reflects part of the human condition.

Which woudl be why God said it.

No where in my sermon did I say "THis is true becuse God said it" so I'm really just annoyed with you for even sayign such an asinine thing.




Inserting God into this discussion actually serves to cloud the message, since the message is true regardless of God's nature.

So, basiclaly, we shoudl never menion God in discussing Human Nature. Shoudl we never mention the Dali Lama? Maybe you shoudl never mention your mother.

Come now, the message isn't clouded by mentioning God, and your just trying to suppress such references to God to somehow subvert beleif in God and create Default Atheism in everyday speech.

I'd certainly say that incerting God into such messages hasn't hampered htm in the past, and in fact, I didn't Inscert God at all. God is integral to life itself, and all RIgheousness. Without God, there woudl be no such moral code, or even life.

Before you jump to conclusiosn and htink that I beleive Moral Codes are simply dictates form god and that if God said murder was OK it woudl be, please refrain fom it, as I wat ot keep this thread on topic.

Learn about what I actually beleive, and then procceed.

That said, the messageis not true Regardless of Gods natrue.

If Gods nature where different, the world he created woudl be different.


Everythign is contengent upon who and what God is. So , no. Saying "It owudkl be true regardless of Gods natrue" is also a false statement.




I would praise the wisdom of previous generations, who saw fit to transmit this wisdom to us for our benefit.


So let me get this straight.

We shod;n't mention God. THat clouds the message. We shoudl instead mention previosu Generations who saw fit to transmit this.

WHy doens't the mention of the Previosu Generatiosn cpoud it?

Oh thats right, because you wan tot divorce the moral conduct from God and then claim that we don't need God for morality. You want ot make sure our focus is on our fellow man and eahc other, not on God. Thus, God clouds htings, and we shoudl isnetad praise our Ancestors.

Sorry, I will always Goive God, our Lord and Soverign creator, who established the Natural order and the binding laws of the Universe, and whose laws establish righeosuness, and by whom all else is judged, before any previous Generaiton.

User avatar
unred typo
Posts: 125
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:03 pm
Location: Undisclosed location in the eastern USA

Re: On God And Hi Providence-Zarovian

Post by unred typo » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:57 pm

I think we should focus especially on the wants and needs our fellow beings. It is difficult to spend an entire day focusing on one's own desires without (perhaps inadvertently) harming others and making regretful decisions. If, on the other hand, we keep other people in mind throughout the day, and if we act to benefit them, then we can be confident that our day was as good as we could make it. True happiness and prosperity only comes from helping others.
Let me clarify what I think the Bible says of righteousness. There has crept into the church this idea that righteousness can be maintained in a person’s life apart from loving and helping others. There is a underlying thought that by maintaining a proper and biblically correct view of the sacrifice of Christ, and other doctrines derived from scripture, we are being righteous before a holy God, being perfect in knowledge and truth. This is not what Jesus taught nor is it what is meant by ‘righteousness.’ We are righteous when we do not break the righteous law of God, which is to treat others as we would want them to treat us. We do not steal or commit adultery or lie to others because that is what it means to love others as we have been loved by God. We forgive as we have been forgiven by God, because that is the righteous thing to do.
Thanks for the nice OP, Zarove, but I feel that I must point out that God and the Bible say the same things on this topic as other sources (Taoist texts, Dalai Lama, my mother, ...). What you say isn't true because God said it, but because it accurately reflects part of the human condition. Inserting God into this discussion actually serves to cloud the message, since the message is true regardless of God's nature. I would praise the wisdom of previous generations, who saw fit to transmit this wisdom to us for our benefit.
Why is it unreasonable to you that God is the source of all truth and love and wherever this is found, whether in ‘secular’ or religious settings, it is something that has flowed from God like water from the sky flows and is found in all sorts of earthly places?



P.S. OP= opening post, not Opinion Piece, i think... :?
The truth will stand with you but man-made doctrines will melt away like cowards in the battle.

ZAROVE
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: On God And Hi Providence-Zarovian

Post by ZAROVE » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:01 pm

If so sorry. I'm use to diffrnt Lingo it seems.

User avatar
QuantumTroll
Posts: 1073
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:54 am
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Contact:

Re: On God And Hi Providence-Zarovian

Post by QuantumTroll » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:22 pm

Zarove, I didn't mean to criticize the sermon. I totally agree with the message. The first part of my post was intended to expand on the themes presented, putting focus on an aspect that I consider especially important.

Again, I'm sorry that I apparently implied some things that I did not intend.

The second part of the post wasn't intended to put words into your mouth, but to convey that many non-Christian lines of thought come to the same conclusions. The idea that the word "God" would cloud the essential message comes from the fact that a lot of people stop listening as soon as they hear someone say "God". As soon as God is invoked, people tend to insert their own ideas about what He is all about, and whatever you were saying has a chance of getting lost in between their strongly held preconceived notions. If you avoid the idea that "the Christian God said this", and instead show that this message is held by all kinds of people, the message gains a more universal audience.

P.S. and yes, OP meant "Original Post" ;)

User avatar
QuantumTroll
Posts: 1073
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:54 am
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Contact:

Re: On God And Hi Providence-Zarovian

Post by QuantumTroll » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:41 pm

unred typo wrote: Let me clarify what I think the Bible says of righteousness. There has crept into the church this idea that righteousness can be maintained in a person’s life apart from loving and helping others. There is a underlying thought that by maintaining a proper and biblically correct view of the sacrifice of Christ, and other doctrines derived from scripture, we are being righteous before a holy God, being perfect in knowledge and truth. This is not what Jesus taught nor is it what is meant by ‘righteousness.’ We are righteous when we do not break the righteous law of God, which is to treat others as we would want them to treat us. We do not steal or commit adultery or lie to others because that is what it means to love others as we have been loved by God. We forgive as we have been forgiven by God, because that is the righteous thing to do.
I like this Christian view of righteousness. It beats the pants off of the "righteous crusade" view of righteousness. Even if I don't believe in God, I can appreciate a system of belief that reinforces behavior that I agree with, and this is an excellent example of Christian theology/philosophy doing the right thing.
Why is it unreasonable to you that God is the source of all truth and love and wherever this is found, whether in ‘secular’ or religious settings, it is something that has flowed from God like water from the sky flows and is found in all sorts of earthly places?
It is unreasonable to me simply because I think God does not exist. Truth is a human idea involving logic and language, love is instincts from our mammalian ancestry, and both of these have come into existence without the involvement of a supernatural personality. When someone says something true about love, we're dealing with human ideas about human instincts. I hope this answers your question :)

ZAROVE
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: On God And Hi Providence-Zarovian

Post by ZAROVE » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:42 pm

Zarove, I didn't mean to criticize the sermon. I totally agree with the message. The first part of my post was intended to expand on the themes presented, putting focus on an aspect that I consider especially important.


I realise this, but did not couner you on the early remarks. My statement abotu such where based upon the latter.



Again, I'm sorry that I apparently implied some things that I did not intend.


Apparently yes.


The second part of the post wasn't intended to put words into your mouth, but to convey that many non-Christian lines of thought come to the same conclusions.


But, in the context of this, and in light of how you claim the use of God clouds the message, you can see why it woudl appear to the observer to implicate me in a sort of blind obedience.

Something I fear is well too often Charged of all Christians, especially by the mor emilitant of the Ateists these days.

I tend to avoid such lables, myself.


The idea that the word "God" would cloud the essential message comes from the fact that a lot of people stop listening as soon as they hear someone say "God".


But God is still integral tot he Sermon. I didn't tack on referneces ot God, nor was the message relaly possible without God. THe whole message invovles us living in accordance to our true natures, and desirign that which is Benificial to ourselves and others, and not harmful, and o live in confidence and not fear, precicely becaus this is what God had created us for.

God is, after all, the central element of this.

And it is, after all, a Sermon.



As soon as God is invoked, people tend to insert their own ideas about what He is all about, and whatever you were saying has a chance of getting lost in between their strongly held preconceived notions.

But this owudl be true if I made no mention of God. Peopel oudl simply inscert a Humanistic view ifthey where Humanist, a Buddhist view if Buddhist, and th elist goes on.


On tha note, when I say "Have no fear" that sill have different connotaitsn to different people. So will "Confidence" and "Movign to a goal f Benifit".

President George Bush thinks spreading Democracy will breed peace so the war in Iraq was good, as do others who currently support the war efforts. I'm sure your aware of the opposition to this view. The question then becoems, if you had a Pro-War advocate and an Anti-War advocat elistenign to me say what you think is the whoel mesage, abut focusing n our desiges, and helping others along the way, do you relaly tbink their preconcienved otosn won't effect htem in what they think is the best route?

The Pro-War advocate will press on with his activities secure int he fact that I agree with him because I want whats best and so does he, and he focuses lon the goal. Meanwhile, the Anti-War advocate is secure in that I agre iwht them, sets aside their fear, and focuses on endign the war.


Preconcieve dnotions about who God is won't really be anythign new, nor is the core problem you invoke avoide dby not mentionign God.

Likewise, the mesge is gutted, sicne the point is larlgey to folow Gods will.




If you avoid the idea that "the Christian God said this", and instead show that this message is held by all kinds of people, the message gains a more universal audience.

P.S. and yes, OP meant "Original Post"



Not only is htis a Sermon, menaign it alreayd has a Limited audience to begin with, but the fact of the mater is, there is no Christian God. THere is only God.

The same God worhsiped by Christians is also worhsiped by Jews and Muslims.

I'd also say this same God has made himself known to all people the world over.

It is clear tha I wrote in a Christain COntext. I am a Christain, and I woudl be expected ot deliver such a sermon in that regard. However, I strongly suspect that this woudln't effect the audiences ability to relate to it, or accept it. Pope John Paul 2 spoke to Tabetans, and th crowd was a mixed lot, of Catholic Tibetsn and Buddhists.

He later held the Famous Assisi event, with numrous world leaders of the worlds major religions meeting to pray to God. Togather.

Its not that we all agree with each other on all things, but ther is alreayd a recognition that there is a God, over all, to whom we all pray, and to whom each culture has buikt traditiosn and customs around.

If this has been acheived as an understaning, long before I was born, as is evidenced by the mission trips to Asia and the Americas, then how is it that I am ging ot loose a Universal audience by mentionign someone everyone knows of?

Post Reply