Exciting Times We're In

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

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tinythinker
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Post by tinythinker » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:43 pm

fleetmouse wrote:Tiny, I'm going to take off my laurel wreath and descend from the Olympian heights of contemplative thought that I customarily inhabit, to come right out and ask you: why are you so angry?
I was not aware that dissatisfaction or disappointment must indicate anger, even through the opaque lens of online communication. I critiqued OG's approach, and when you implied I was being inconsistent or hypocritical by bringing up the Roosevelt quote, I pointed out it was not an appropriate analogy. I then explained my criticism of OG's post and decided to edit that reply precisely so I would not be misunderstood. I have written quite a bit today to show I am not angry at OG, I simply don't like the approach he has employed. If you think that these critiques or my requests to both you and OG to avoid what I consider to be irrelevant or inflammatory tangents are signs of anger, I suppose then I must appear to be the salad-era Hulk. That is not my intention. In the immortal words of Bill Bigsby in his role as David "Bruce" Banner, "Mr. McGee, don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry..." :mrgreen: Now, if you will excuse me I am going to burst out of my shirt in a fit of rage and bend some iron bars with my bare hands.
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fleetmouse
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Post by fleetmouse » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:43 pm

Ophir's Gopher wrote:
fleetmouse wrote:Tiny, I'm going to take off my laurel wreath and descend from the Olympian heights of contemplative thought that I customarily inhabit, to come right out and ask you: why are you so angry?
What makes you think he is angry? I'm not aware of your schism, so I'd like to know what the beef is.
I'm just needling him. :D

edit: haha, so I see he knows it, too. :mrgreen:

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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Post by tinythinker » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:50 pm

Ophir's Gopher wrote:
fleetmouse wrote:Tiny, I'm going to take off my laurel wreath and descend from the Olympian heights of contemplative thought that I customarily inhabit, to come right out and ask you: why are you so angry?
What makes you think he is angry? I'm not aware of your schism, so I'd like to know what the beef is.
Me too! I do get angry, but I tend to say so, such as my reaction to what Joe posted about the anti-intellectual clap-trap he ran across on another forum. And as mentioned my sarcasm is something that sometimes comes across as mean-spirited or arrogant. So I am used to being seen as stupid, arrogant, or just plain dull, but angry is a new one for me. I suspect he is just poking fun, but I can never be sure, so I try to take the complaint seriously (first half) and then let on that I cool with it if I am being punked (latter half). This would get bac to why some folks find me not too bright :D
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Post by tinythinker » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:53 pm

fleetmouse wrote:
Ophir's Gopher wrote:
fleetmouse wrote:Tiny, I'm going to take off my laurel wreath and descend from the Olympian heights of contemplative thought that I customarily inhabit, to come right out and ask you: why are you so angry?
What makes you think he is angry? I'm not aware of your schism, so I'd like to know what the beef is.
I'm just needling him. :D

edit: haha, so I see he knows it, too. :mrgreen:
Hah, I knew it! But I have thought so before and then found out the person wasn't kidding. No, he actually did think I was an obnoxious twat and a clueless git who is so arrogant that when I reach toward heaven I end up kissing my own ass. I must say it was creative, though.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Post by Metacrock » Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:58 pm

Ophir's Gopher wrote:I never thought I'd witness it in my lifetime. We're actually witnessing the death of the major fear-based religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It's fascinating and beautiful to behold these creeds collapsing under the weight of dogmatic fundamentalism and completely untenable perceptions of reality. Pick any Abrahamic religion, and I can explain how it undid itself and why, at least in its current state, it cannot gain back any of the momentum it had. These modes of belief are dying; if they are not dying then they are simply evolving into extremely liberal beliefs that are a vapor of what they once were.

I really pity people who can't understand or appreciate the creeds but still think they know enough critique religion having read not a single page of any major theologian. (That is not aimed you personally).

It's absurdly rash to think this is the end of anything. It's probably not even the end of Child abuse in the Catholic priesthood.

Atheism is dying out. It's gone way down from 12% i the 90s to 1.5% now. That's assuming adherence.com and the Pew study. 2 billion people are Christians something 35% world wide, 3% are atheists world wide. You are vastly underrating the importance people place upon religion. those Billion people will not let Christianity die out.

But you are too youg to know what exciting times are. In my life I remember from the news media and from knowing some people where in each catasrophy I've "seen" or been around durning

coup de etat agisnst american President
America losing first war that the majority of it's people are aware it obviously lost
Man lands on moon!
Counter cultural movement forever changes nature of American society
end of cold
demise of communism
Berlin Wall comes down
Western Eruope experincing a boody war on it's on contenant
Mass genocides around the world (Guatemala, Bosnia, Croatia, Ruwanda)
Total absolute idiot elected President two terms in a row (two different Presidents)
First women on Sup court
First woman speaker of house
First woman to mount major presidential camapign
first two female secretaries of state
The whole woman's movement totally widely unimaginably more successful than anyone wildest dreams when it began, reversing 5,000 years of sexism.
First Black President in American History
Major U.S. city almost wiped out by flood
Volcano holds the world's air line industry hostage
Major landmark destroyed by terrorists kills 5000 people.

I could go On. anyone of these is an amazing thing. The 53 years I've been around have been totally amazing. I am honored to say I took part in some small parts of that change (anti-war movements, counter culture, the end of left Politics in America I was one of the last communists).

Christianity dying out is far from one of them.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Post by Metacrock » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:06 pm

Ophir's Gopher wrote:@tiny

I'm confused. I didn't think I said anything that controversial. And I also wasn't "daring" anyone to try to overturn my hypothesis that fundamentalism and archaic dogmatism is killing religion as we know it. I simply am available to give my perspective if anyone doesn't see it or disagrees.

In what way do you see these faiths thriving and successfully passing the torch? I simply don't see it, and I've looked hard.

And be as sarcastic as you like. I love sarcasm.

You are overlooking one aspect of fundamentalism and also evangelicalism that enables them to do the Thomas Khun thing (absorb anomalies into the paradigm). That means these trials are not going to destroy them or their momentum becuase can be made to seem part of the prediction that validates their paradigm, their world view.

All of these problems can be viewed part of the "end times" which is so inkblot-like that anything can be read into it. Now you might think that's a point of critique to discredit it but also means that any problem you name can be absorbed into the paradigm and turned into confirmation of their view.

Problems and disasters failures of leadership, war, famine, persecution, none of that can destroy Christianity.

The only thing that will destroy Christianity are wealth, peace, stability, social affluence and complacency.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Post by Metacrock » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:09 pm

two things have hit me recently that tell me beyond the shadow of a doubt that I am now an old man.

(1) I look back over the times I've lived in and talk about what amazing bits of history I've lived through.

(2) I watch Matlock every after noon and don't mind.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Post by tinythinker » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:16 pm

Maybe I could do a Glenn Beck here:

We mentioned religion being destroyed.
We mentioned the Hulk.
We mentioned anger and fear.
We mentioned fundamentalists.
Anger and fear transforms people into fundamentalists.
Fundamentalism is destructive.
Anger and fear transform Banner into the Hulk.
The Hulk is destructive.
Hence the Hulk is a fundamentalist.
Therefore, the Hulk is destroying religion.
(Corollary: Stan Lee is the anti-Christ)

Now I will set up a Cafe Press site showing the Hulk tearing down the Sistine Chapel a la Sampson with the caption "Hulk Smash!" and await word of my new show on Fox News.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Post by tinythinker » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:18 pm

Metacrock wrote:two things have hit me recently that tell me beyond the shadow of a doubt that I am now an old man.

(1) I look back over the times I've lived in and talk about what amazing bits of history I've lived through.

(2) I watch Matlock every after noon and don't mind.
I was doing that when I was 20. I had just seen the fall of the Berlin wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union while I was in high school. And when I was visiting my parents they had lots of tapes they liked to watch of Gunsmoke, the Andy Griffith show, Rawhide, and of course Matlock.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Post by KR Wordgazer » Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:33 pm

Christianity, at least, has been in the position it's in now, many many times before. I haven't read as much as I should of the history of other religions, but I do have some knowledge of church history. Christianity has frequently, through the ages, gotten itself in a position in which one or more of its most dominant expressions has lost its initial vision (following Christ and his teachings) and has gotten tangled up in political rule. Often it has seemed that Christianity has been about to self-immolate, and more than once have those against it expressed satisfaction and delight very similar to what you just have, Ophir. And then like a phoenix from its ashes, a truer expression of the basic faith arises and rejuvenates it once again. This is in the process of happening even now. So I wouldn't complete the work on Christianity's tombstone just yet.
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