Exciting Times We're In

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Exciting Times We're In

Postby Ophir's Gopher on Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:10 am

I never thought I'd witness it in my lifetime. We're actually witnessing the death of the major fear-based religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. It's fascinating and beautiful to behold these creeds collapsing under the weight of dogmatic fundamentalism and completely untenable perceptions of reality. Pick any Abrahamic religion, and I can explain how it undid itself and why, at least in its current state, it cannot gain back any of the momentum it had. These modes of belief are dying; if they are not dying then they are simply evolving into extremely liberal beliefs that are a vapor of what they once were.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Postby tinythinker on Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:56 am

Hello OG, welcome to the forums. I originally decided to use some rib-poking sarcasm to highlight some potential problems with your presentation, but I've decided it is anti-productive. If I used that approach with Joe or Tom it would be effective but in this instance it would be just as problematic as the approach it was intended to critique. You may still read it in Fleet's response to my post, in which he has kindly italicized all the personal pronouns, but my more direct and succinct sentiment is found below. Be well.
Last edited by tinythinker on Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Postby fleetmouse on Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:03 am

tinythinker wrote:Obviously you have no intent to bitterly provoke an acrimonious reply and you readily display a deep knowledge and respect for the views others. It is patently clear you are not at all interested in making hubristic claims that betray a small-minded prejudice nor can anyone suggest you are substituting your limited knowledge and a hostile attitude for an informed and generous perspective in making a patronizing and incongruous generalization about a topic towards which you have a noted and deep bias. Congratulations on your fair-minded and accurate contribution to the thoughtful dialogue we maintain on these forums, as opposed to taking a potentially interesting issue and girding it with inflammatory rhetoric. It will certainly have a strong impact on whether folks will wish engage with you in a serious dialogue going forward.


Gee, isn't there a saying about great minds, average minds and something something?
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Postby tinythinker on Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:17 am

fleetmouse wrote:
tinythinker wrote:Obviously you have no intent to bitterly provoke an acrimonious reply and you readily display a deep knowledge and respect for the views others. It is patently clear you are not at all interested in making hubristic claims that betray a small-minded prejudice nor can anyone suggest you are substituting your limited knowledge and a hostile attitude for an informed and generous perspective in making a patronizing and incongruous generalization about a topic towards which you have a noted and deep bias. Congratulations on your fair-minded and accurate contribution to the thoughtful dialogue we maintain on these forums, as opposed to taking a potentially interesting issue and girding it with inflammatory rhetoric. It will certainly have a strong impact on whether folks will wish engage with you in a serious dialogue going forward.


Gee, isn't there a saying about great minds, average minds and something something?

If I were somewhere else talking about OG, that would be apt. I am talking to him. I watched his spat with other regulars in previous threads. Tom can be a little sensitive and abrasive at times, which he admits himself. So I continued to simply observe. Here we finally have an original post by OG that is not a continuation of another thread, which is a chance to see how he will choose to present himself and his ideas. He has previously made claims he was being misrepresented and unfairly characterized. You may highlight all the personal pronouns you wish, but it doesn't change my impression. I think he could make useful and interesting contributions but he is not helping things by presenting them in the way he has. So shall I accuse you of talking "about" me in a similarly absurd fashion? If you have a problem with how I present myself, that's fine. If you disagree with my impression about OG's post, that's fine. But this? Come on.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Postby tinythinker on Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:32 am

Oh, and OG, if you want to make an argument like the ones you claim to be able to make, rather than preface it like a challenge ("I can do it... just dare me!"), why not just make your case? I mean, post a series of new threads proving your points about Judaism, Christianity and Islam respectively. No posturing. No gloating. Just make the argument with logic and facts and any other supporting materials and let it stand on its own. My sarcasm can seem more harsh than it is intended to be, for which I am often chastised (mostly by my own conscience), but be that as it may it is intended to reflect a dissatisfaction with the presentation of ideas rather than the ideas themselves. But if folks think your arguments are just about derision and division, that is what will be focused on rather than any substance.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Postby Ophir's Gopher on Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:55 am

@tiny

I'm confused. I didn't think I said anything that controversial. And I also wasn't "daring" anyone to try to overturn my hypothesis that fundamentalism and archaic dogmatism is killing religion as we know it. I simply am available to give my perspective if anyone doesn't see it or disagrees.

In what way do you see these faiths thriving and successfully passing the torch? I simply don't see it, and I've looked hard.

And be as sarcastic as you like. I love sarcasm.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Postby fleetmouse on Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:06 pm

Tiny, I'm going to take off my laurel wreath and descend from the Olympian heights of contemplative thought that I customarily inhabit, to come right out and ask you: why are you so angry?
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Postby tinythinker on Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:23 pm

Ophir's Gopher wrote:@tiny

I'm confused. I didn't think I said anything that controversial. And I also wasn't "daring" anyone to try to overturn my hypothesis that fundamentalism and archaic dogmatism is killing religion as we know it. I simply am available to give my perspective if anyone doesn't see it or disagrees.

In what way do you see these faiths thriving and successfully passing the torch? I simply don't see it, and I've looked hard.

And be as sarcastic as you like. I love sarcasm.

I only use sarcasm when it is helpful, not when it harms or when it distracts from the message. I am not here to mock or ridicule. Whether you consider your post to be a dare (my phrasing) or not, it can come across as waiting for someone to challenge you on it. Indeed, your response is to ask me to show you why you are wrong when you haven't offered anything yet to show you are right. It's not that you are wrong to ask, I just feel it would be more productive to start with "Here is what I think and why, does anyone disagree?"

For the other part, using phrases like "beautiful to behold" to describe what you claim is the collapse of religions that are important to many people here is callous at best. Hence my suggestion to skip that. I mean, if you just want to post that you are happy about the collapse of religion(s), go ahead. It will either be ignored or provoke a round of mudslinging.

But if the point is that you think you have some insight into or proof of such collapses then just go for it. Type something like "The evidence for and explanation of the collapse of Islam" (or "Judaism", or "Christianity") in the title box of a new post and then proceed to lay out your case. Give numbers about the shrinking number of adherents around the world or whatever it is you see so clearly. Let people respond to that without the other distractions.

I have said the same thing to Joe a million times: "Don't bring in the personal stuff, or if you do, make one set of posts on that and another distinct set about the actual arguments." So I am not just making this case to you or about your post(s). It's an old refrain of mine. It's also just a suggestion, which of course you are free to do with as you please, but I honestly believe it would be for the best.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Postby Ophir's Gopher on Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:37 pm

tinythinker wrote:
Ophir's Gopher wrote:@tiny

I'm confused. I didn't think I said anything that controversial. And I also wasn't "daring" anyone to try to overturn my hypothesis that fundamentalism and archaic dogmatism is killing religion as we know it. I simply am available to give my perspective if anyone doesn't see it or disagrees.

In what way do you see these faiths thriving and successfully passing the torch? I simply don't see it, and I've looked hard.

And be as sarcastic as you like. I love sarcasm.

I only use sarcasm when it is helpful, not when it harms or when it distracts from the message. I am not here to mock or ridicule. Whether you consider your post to be a dare (my phrasing) or not, it can come across as waiting for someone to challenge you on it. Indeed, your response is to ask me to show you why you are wrong when you haven't offered anything yet to show you are right. It's not that you are wrong to ask, I just feel it would be more productive to start with "Here is what I think and why, does anyone disagree?"

For the other part, using phrases like "beautiful to behold" to describe what you claim is the collapse of religions that are important to many people here is callous at best. Hence my suggestion to skip that. I mean, if you just want to post that you are happy about the collapse of religion(s), go ahead. It will either be ignored or provoke a round of mudslinging.

But if the point is that you think you have some insight into or proof of such collapses then just go for it. Type something like "The evidence for and explanation of the collapse of Islam" (or "Judaism", or "Christianity") in the title box of a new post and then proceed to lay out your case. Give numbers about the shrinking number of adherents around the world or whatever it is you see so clearly. Let people respond to that without the other distractions.

I have said the same thing to Joe a million times: "Don't bring in the personal stuff, or if you do, make one set of posts on that and another distinct set about the actual arguments." So I am not just making this case to you or about your post(s). It's an old refrain of mine. It's also just a suggestion, which of course you are free to do with as you please, but I honestly believe it would be for the best.


What you say is entirely reasonable and fair.

I should have said the self implosion of religion is beautiful. The magnitude of it tells me that something great and noble must be behind it. It's like seeing a cultist muster the courage to leave the cult, but on a larger scale. It was not meant to offend you or anyone else, but I can understand my phrasing being interpreted as a provocation. I am sorry.
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Re: Exciting Times We're In

Postby Ophir's Gopher on Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:39 pm

fleetmouse wrote:Tiny, I'm going to take off my laurel wreath and descend from the Olympian heights of contemplative thought that I customarily inhabit, to come right out and ask you: why are you so angry?


What makes you think he is angry? I'm not aware of your schism, so I'd like to know what the beef is.
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