Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

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ChumpChange
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Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Post by ChumpChange » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:38 pm

I have a good friend who is an atheist. He doesnt call himself an atheist but he certainly does not believe in God. He's a very intellectual, no non-sense kind of guy. The other night we got into talking about God and he pulled out the old atheist argument where he compares the existence of God to the existence of fairies and leprechauns. I've had this argument with atheist on-line but never talked about it with him before. I guess he brought it up because he noticed a copy of Dawkins "The God Delusion" on my coffee table. He thought it was curious that I had it and was reading it. Anyways I was shocked at how convinced my friend was that believing in God is like believing in the Easter Bunny. This of course is absurd. My answer to his ridiculous comment is that comparing the two beliefs is an ignorant argument to say the least. Nobody believes that Leprechauns created the universe. Nobody has faith in the easter bunny because nobody past the age of 10 believes that the easter bunny is real. Leprechauns never healed anyones blindness or spread a message of unconditional love. Fairies didnt inspire a book like the Bible that millions of people live their life according to. Santa Clause never sacrificed his life for anybody. The atheist like to mock christians with their mascot the flying spaghetti monster but this only makes them look all the more oblivious to christian theology. Nobody would ever believe in the food monster because its not real. Simple and plain. It doesnt exist therefore people cant feel it or experience it.

Needless to say my friend was upset and insisted that because there is as much evidence for leprechauns as there is for God than its a good comparison. I told him that if over thousands of years millions upon millions of people insisted that leprechauns exist and people claimed to have experiences with them and believed to the point they would be willing to die for that belief then I think it would be worth taking a look at. Obviously though this is not the case. Nobody believes in leprechauns. Some people used to hundreds of years ago on an island called Ireland but that was a long time ago and it didnt last long. Why dont people still believe in leprechauns? Because they dont exist. Im not saying that if someone believes in something it means its real. But I am saying that if nobody believes in it then there is probably a good reason for that. The reason people believe in god is because its obvious that God exist. People feel and experience God. God answers peoples prayers and when he speaks to your heart you can feel it. When people read the words of Jesus they feel the undeniable truth of his words. If millions and million of people over thousands of years all believe in something enough to die for then there is probably a good reason to at least suspect they may be right.

The same goes for other ignorant argument such as Russell's Teapot. Assuming that human beings will believe in just about any mythical creature you can conjure up from you imagination doesnt say much about your perception of your fellow humans. People arent as stupid as the atheist likes to think.
"Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

-Ecclesiastes 7:29

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Metacrock
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Re: Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Post by Metacrock » Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:05 pm

I'v lost all patience with people who think that way.
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Wyrdsmyth
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Re: Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Post by Wyrdsmyth » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:50 pm

Get ready to lose your patience, Meta.

ChumpChange, your reasoning is seriously flawed:
ChumpChange wrote:My answer to his ridiculous comment is that comparing the two beliefs is an ignorant argument to say the least. Nobody believes that Leprechauns created the universe.


How is it relevant whether anyone believes that leprechauns created the universe? What if some people believed they did -- does that have anything to do with how plausible leprechauns are?
ChumpChange wrote:Nobody has faith in the easter bunny because nobody past the age of 10 believes that the easter bunny is real.
A circular, nonsensical statement. It equates to: "the beliefs of people in Group X are of no account, and therefore I dismiss them."
ChumpChange wrote: Leprechauns never healed anyones blindness or spread a message of unconditional love.
Again: what if they did? What bearing does that have on how plausible their existence is? If in old Irish folklore, leprechauns healed people -- would that make them more plausible? If so -- why? ("You're fit as a fiddle," the leprechaun said to the bandaged shephard boy. "Now get back to your flock, and don't be a-trying to chase after me and get me gold again! You'll trip and fall every time."). I think you need to distinguish between how plausible the existence of something is, and whether that thing's actions in the context of a story have any meaning or not.
ChumpChange wrote: Fairies didnt inspire a book like the Bible that millions of people live their life according to.
Again, you're confusing being inspired by an idea with plausibility of existence. Fairies have inspired a lot of stories, great literature even. Shakespeare included them in his plays. Spenser wrote the Faerie Queene. J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a few books you may have heard of -- inspired by fairy stories. Fairies, have, indeed had a huge impact on people -- or, we should say, the idea of fairies.
ChumpChange wrote:Santa Clause never sacrificed his life for anybody.
Santa Claus, like Jesus, is a historical figure who has been wrapped up in myth. There really was a St Nicholas of Myra who is the basis for the Santa Claus Myth. St Nicholas allegedly helped children, and helped young girls without dowries to get married, and even slapped the famous Arius of the Arian Heresy at the Council of Nicaea. But the mythical or supernatural powers attributed to him, such as being able to calm the seas, are like those of Jesus, implausible. It is most likely that there was a man named Nicholas, who did try to help people, and was remembered for it fondly -- and had his story embellished with miracles. To this day his image (IKON) lives to inspire others to be generous and kind and helpful to others, albeit now in the form of a fat man in a red suit with flying reindeer, elves, magic powers and all the rest -- I guess that's what happens when you export a myth from Asia Minor to Scandinavia... P.S. I myself own a Russian-made Byzantine style icon of St Nicholas Wonderworker. I have always liked Santa Claus, and I also have a fondness for Byzantine history and ecclesiastical art and music (but the icon misleads some people into thinking I am Orthodox).
ChumpChange wrote:The atheist like to mock christians with their mascot the flying spaghetti monster but this only makes them look all the more oblivious to christian theology. Nobody would ever believe in the food monster because its not real. Simple and plain. It doesnt exist therefore people cant feel it or experience it.


"Nobody would believe in [it] because its not real" has to be the most brazenly flawed thing I've read today. Sorry, but you need to really think about that sentence -- it's about as unphilosophical as you can get. But I do agree with you that there are atheists who seem to enjoy mocking beliefs of Christians, using these imaginary entities. That is immature, and for the most part, counterproductive. If you are trying to get the other side to open up their mind to your point of view, ridicule is probably not the best tact. But in general, the point of such things is indeed to try to get Christians to see that the burden of proof is always on the believer, not on the doubter, when it comes to these extraordinary claims of the existence of some thing. It doesn't matter if it's a Flying Spaghetti Monster, an Invisible Pink Unicorn, or a British teapot in solar orbit between earth and Mars... or miniature black holes, Tachyons or black swans. The point is not the attributes you believe such a thing has (it's invisible, it flies, it created the universe, it hides gold at the end of rainbows, it collects human teeth in exchange for change), but whether there is enough evidence to believe in its existence.
ChumpChange wrote:Needless to say my friend was upset and insisted that because there is as much evidence for leprechauns as there is for God than its a good comparison.
The reason it's a good comparison is that there is no evidence for either, but the leprechaun is something you and the atheist share non-belief in.
ChumpChange wrote:If millions and million of people over thousands of years all believe in something enough to die for then there is probably a good reason to at least suspect they may be right.
Lots of head-nods from the flat-earthers, all around... but it turns out argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.

"I leave my tooth under my pillow, and all I get for it is this lousy chump change!"

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KR Wordgazer
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Re: Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Post by KR Wordgazer » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:52 pm

The reason it's a good comparison is that there is no evidence for either, but the leprechaun is something you and the atheist share non-belief in.
:roll:

Here we go again. There is no evidence for leprechauns, as far as I know. But no evidence for God? Hah. There is no undisputed or indisputable evidence, that's all.

As for the burden of proof being on the theist-- I see no reason, Wyrdsmyth, to try to convince you of something you have no intention of allowing yourself to be convinced of. I believe what I believe largely because of what has happened to me in my life. The same things haven't happened to you. You have no reason to believe me because I'm a stranger to you-- you have no reason to trust my testimony, nor do you want to. So why should I bother?

But that doesn't mean I have no good reason to believe what I believe.
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ChumpChange
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Re: Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Post by ChumpChange » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:50 pm

ChumpChange wrote:My answer to his ridiculous comment is that comparing the two beliefs is an ignorant argument to say the least. Nobody believes that Leprechauns created the universe.

Wyrdsmyth wrote:How is it relevant whether anyone believes that leprechauns created the universe? What if some people believed they did -- does that have anything to do with how plausible leprechauns are?
Yes it does. Basing your argument on a fairy tale is irrelevant because God is not a fairy tale. If a creationist compared the theory of evolution to belief in Bigfoot you'd understand the logic. There is no proof of Leprechauns interacting with people and nobody claims they do. There is evidence that God has interacted with people (Im not talking about physical evidence) and millions claim he does on a daily basis so then where do you find the reasoning behind comparing Him to a fairy tale?
ChumpChange wrote:Nobody has faith in the easter bunny because nobody past the age of 10 believes that the easter bunny is real.
Wyrdsmyth wrote:A circular, nonsensical statement. It equates to: "the beliefs of people in Group X are of no account, and therefore I dismiss them."
YES! Anyone under the age of lets say 8-10 years old is dismissed from the existence of god argument because at that age a child is not capable of making his own logic based argument rather drifts towards the beliefs of his parents. Certain people can be non-significant to a discussion and therefore dismissed, that does not make it an irrelevant argument. If a group of the worlds top biochemist are having a discussion on preventing HIV do you think that the opinion of the janitor is going to persuade the discussion at all? Think about it.
ChumpChange wrote: Leprechauns never healed anyones blindness or spread a message of unconditional love.
Wyrdsmyth wrote:Again: what if they did? What bearing does that have on how plausible their existence is? If in old Irish folklore, leprechauns healed people -- would that make them more plausible? If so -- why? ("You're fit as a fiddle," the leprechaun said to the bandaged shephard boy. "Now get back to your flock, and don't be a-trying to chase after me and get me gold again! You'll trip and fall every time."). I think you need to distinguish between how plausible the existence of something is, and whether that thing's actions in the context of a story have any meaning or not.
What if they did? Well they didnt and nobody claims they did! If a million people told me that a leprechaun healed their sickness then i would have no right to dismiss the claims without investigating. Thats what is happening, science refuses to even accept the possibility of the existence of God every though million of people say they know he exist. People claiming that its real doesnt make it so but you'll never know if its true or not until you actually take a serious look into it. To deny even the possibility is close mindedness to the extreme.
ChumpChange wrote: Fairies didnt inspire a book like the Bible that millions of people live their life according to.
Wyrdsmyth wrote:Again, you're confusing being inspired by an idea with plausibility of existence. Fairies have inspired a lot of stories, great literature even. Shakespeare included them in his plays. Spenser wrote the Faerie Queene. J.R.R. Tolkien wrote a few books you may have heard of -- inspired by fairy stories. Fairies, have, indeed had a huge impact on people -- or, we should say, the idea of fairies.
What you say about fairies is true but pointless. Nobody worships J.R.R Tolkien. Why? Because these fairy tales are admitted works of fiction and have never been taken as anything more. your reasoning is flawed my friend.
ChumpChange wrote:Santa Clause never sacrificed his life for anybody.
Wyrdsmyth wrote:Santa Claus, like Jesus, is a historical figure who has been wrapped up in myth. There really was a St Nicholas of Myra who is the basis for the Santa Claus Myth. St Nicholas allegedly helped children, and helped young girls without dowries to get married, and even slapped the famous Arius of the Arian Heresy at the Council of Nicaea. But the mythical or supernatural powers attributed to him, such as being able to calm the seas, are like those of Jesus, implausible. It is most likely that there was a man named Nicholas, who did try to help people, and was remembered for it fondly -- and had his story embellished with miracles. To this day his image (IKON) lives to inspire others to be generous and kind and helpful to others, albeit now in the form of a fat man in a red suit with flying reindeer, elves, magic powers and all the rest -- I guess that's what happens when you export a myth from Asia Minor to Scandinavia... P.S. I myself own a Russian-made Byzantine style icon of St Nicholas Wonderworker. I have always liked Santa Claus, and I also have a fondness for Byzantine history and ecclesiastical art and music (but the icon misleads some people into thinking I am Orthodox).
Great good to know. If you say that Jesus has been wrapped up in myth then prove it.
ChumpChange wrote:The atheist like to mock christians with their mascot the flying spaghetti monster but this only makes them look all the more oblivious to christian theology. Nobody would ever believe in the food monster because its not real. Simple and plain. It doesnt exist therefore people cant feel it or experience it.

Wyrdsmyth wrote:"Nobody would believe in [it] because its not real" has to be the most brazenly flawed thing I've read today. Sorry, but you need to really think about that sentence -- it's about as unphilosophical as you can get. But I do agree with you that there are atheists who seem to enjoy mocking beliefs of Christians, using these imaginary entities. That is immature, and for the most part, counterproductive. If you are trying to get the other side to open up their mind to your point of view, ridicule is probably not the best tact. But in general, the point of such things is indeed to try to get Christians to see that the burden of proof is always on the believer, not on the doubter, when it comes to these extraordinary claims of the existence of some thing. It doesn't matter if it's a Flying Spaghetti Monster, an Invisible Pink Unicorn, or a British teapot in solar orbit between earth and Mars... or miniature black holes, Tachyons or black swans. The point is not the attributes you believe such a thing has (it's invisible, it flies, it created the universe, it hides gold at the end of rainbows, it collects human teeth in exchange for change), but whether there is enough evidence to believe in its existence.
No you misunderstood. It doesnt exist therefore nobody can feel it or experience it. I can feel the emotion of love because it exist but I cannot feel an imaginary emotion that some guy just makes up. I dont accept the burden of proof because i do not believe that the existence of God can be proven for many reasons. But the most important of those reasons is the fact that even if God appeared in the sky for everyone to see scientist and/or atheist would come up with an excuse to deny it. They would call it mass hallucinations and such. If God actually spoke and said "Hey Wyrdsmith, Here I am, Im God, Look and see." the skeptic would call you delusional or maybe it was a massive sonic boom...or no even better it was a force of nature which science simply doesnt understand yet but will in the future.
ChumpChange wrote:If millions and million of people over thousands of years all believe in something enough to die for then there is probably a good reason to at least suspect they may be right.
Wyrdsmyth wrote:Lots of head-nods from the flat-earthers, all around... but it turns out argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.
Flat earthers? Wasnt it the so-called scientist that also thought the earth was flat? I believe that christians were some of the first people to recognize that it wasnt. Do your research. There was no argumentum ad populum and like many atheist you take logically fallacies out of context. Fallacies are not a matter of opinion my friend.
"Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

-Ecclesiastes 7:29

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Re: Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Post by Metacrock » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:21 pm

my new crusade is to get Chrsitains to stop talking to them. they are all trolls, it's pointless. they are a hate group. As soon as we quite talking to them and they realize we aren't around to belittle they will find something else to train their ignorance upon.
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Re: Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Post by ChumpChange » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:55 pm

Yes but they are so amusing! Its too entertaining to pass up. I do agree though that they should be avoided and Im personally working on that...its so hard. Plus the guy I wrote the topic about is a very good friend of mine and he is not a troll. I cant simply avoid the subject with him because he will assume he won the debate and if he feels that he won the debate then he will be 100% convinced that God does not exist....He's one of "those" types.
"Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

-Ecclesiastes 7:29

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Re: Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Post by Metacrock » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:47 pm

ChumpChange wrote:Yes but they are so amusing! Its too entertaining to pass up. I do agree though that they should be avoided and Im personally working on that...its so hard. Plus the guy I wrote the topic about is a very good friend of mine and he is not a troll. I cant simply avoid the subject with him because he will assume he won the debate and if he feels that he won the debate then he will be 100% convinced that God does not exist....He's one of "those" types.

is he an internet friend or a real life friend?
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Re: Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Post by ChumpChange » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:29 pm

Oh hes a real life old school pal of mine. He was heavily influenced by his collage professors and we've been having this debate for about 6 years or so now.
"Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

-Ecclesiastes 7:29

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Re: Do you believe in the tooth fairy?

Post by Metacrock » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:46 pm

ChumpChange wrote:Oh hes a real life old school pal of mine. He was heavily influenced by his collage professors and we've been having this debate for about 6 years or so now.

that's cool. all my atheist friends in real life are fine people. they are nothing like the inernet know nothings.
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