Deborah stripped of title of "judge" by patriarchalist

Discuss Biblical and theological support for concept that Bible teaches equality between sexes.

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KR Wordgazer
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Deborah stripped of title of "judge" by patriarchalist

Post by KR Wordgazer » Fri Oct 17, 2008 1:14 am

I've never seen such bilge in all my life.

http://www.visionforumministries.org/is ... borah.aspx
Wag more.
Bark less.

ZAROVE
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Re: Deborah stripped of title of "judge" by patriarchalist

Post by ZAROVE » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:37 pm

The whole use of Deborah is a red herring anyway. People who use her to say women should be allowed to preach, be ordained and allowed “full Freedom in the Church” as hey style it forget her actual Role.

She was not a Priest in Ancient Israel. She did not stand in the Temple and offer Sacrifices. She did not lead Prayer services.

She was a Judge. Unlike today, there was no real distinction between Secular and Religious Society, and her role featured both sorts of duties, however, the actual job she performed was to Judge. She settles disputes between parties, and dealt punishments for Violators of the Law. In this Role he was perfectly allowed. However, she’d have never been allowed to be a Priest. I also don’t thinks he was of the Tribe of Levi.

Taking this up now to the Church, which was founded centuries later, I don’t see how it relates at all. From an Apostolic Churches perspective, she was never ordained a Priest. She never served in the capacity to offer Sacraments, and never dealt in the equivalent in Ancient Israel in the Temple. She did not lead worship services, either.

From a Presbyterian (not just Presbyterian Church bur as opposed to Episcopal, or having Bishops) Protestant perspective, the same generally applies. She never held Ministerial office, only “Secular” for want of a better term. She served the people in general society, not in the Temple, and thus not in the Church.

She was not a Rabbi. She was not a Priest. She was a Judge.

From a restorations Perspective you have the same problem. She did not serve as a Priest, or Rabbi, but a Judge.


So I don’t see how the “Egalitarian” argument itself is viable.

While I certainly accept that she was a Judge, or this is evident in Scripture, I see no evidence that she was anything other than a Judge. SO how does she even really matter to the discussion?

ZAROVE
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Re: Deborah stripped of title of "judge" by patriarchalist

Post by ZAROVE » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:29 pm

Now having read the actual Blog Post I should ad that, Sarah Palin doesn’t concern me Theologically. God never ordained a Republic, and our system of electing Leaders is a bit foolish to begin with. Palin derives her Authority form being able to get at least 51% of the vote. She will, as all other Politicians, do this by Pandering. Her role is ostentatiously that of “A Public Servant” as “We, the People” rule, though in reality the Politicians once in office hold the role of Ruler.

But they Rule by Populism not Gods decree.

So I don’t see how Palin attaches to this either.


If God had wanted to prevent this though, then why did he allow us Queens to Rule by he Grace of God? And I don’ mean just in modem Constitutional Monarchies that no longer take these matters seriously. Look at Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the First of England, or Her Majesty Queen Victoria.

Victoria ruled at the height of Empire, clearly blessed by God to whom she devoted herself, and Elizabeth can’t be Praised enough for the Golden Age of England, and her stunning, and divinely allowed, Defeat of the Spanish Armada.

But no Republic ever had a leader Chosen by God.

Civil Rule is best set up in accordance to Natural Law, and thus the manner of which we bow to our Kings or our Queens. Israel was to be different, a Nation of Priests.

America even more different still.

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Metacrock
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Re: Deborah stripped of title of "judge" by patriarchalist

Post by Metacrock » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:45 am

ZAROVE wrote:The whole use of Deborah is a red herring anyway. People who use her to say women should be allowed to preach, be ordained and allowed “full Freedom in the Church” as hey style it forget her actual Role.

She was not a Priest in Ancient Israel. She did not stand in the Temple and offer Sacrifices. She did not lead Prayer services.

She was a Judge. Unlike today, there was no real distinction between Secular and Religious Society, and her role featured both sorts of duties, however, the actual job she performed was to Judge. She settles disputes between parties, and dealt punishments for Violators of the Law. In this Role he was perfectly allowed. However, she’d have never been allowed to be a Priest. I also don’t thinks he was of the Tribe of Levi.

Taking this up now to the Church, which was founded centuries later, I don’t see how it relates at all. From an Apostolic Churches perspective, she was never ordained a Priest. She never served in the capacity to offer Sacraments, and never dealt in the equivalent in Ancient Israel in the Temple. She did not lead worship services, either.

From a Presbyterian (not just Presbyterian Church bur as opposed to Episcopal, or having Bishops) Protestant perspective, the same generally applies. She never held Ministerial office, only “Secular” for want of a better term. She served the people in general society, not in the Temple, and thus not in the Church.

She was not a Rabbi. She was not a Priest. She was a Judge.

From a restorations Perspective you have the same problem. She did not serve as a Priest, or Rabbi, but a Judge.


So I don’t see how the “Egalitarian” argument itself is viable.

While I certainly accept that she was a Judge, or this is evident in Scripture, I see no evidence that she was anything other than a Judge. SO how does she even really matter to the discussion?

preacher man is not a priest. preaching a sermon is not the role of priest. She was also a prophetess and the prophet was on a par with the priest, although he/she had a different function. the prophet/priest dichotomy is classic in all religion. The two are pitted against each other. The priest civilizes the prophet, the prophet keeps the priest honest.
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ZAROVE
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Re: Deborah stripped of title of "judge" by patriarchalist

Post by ZAROVE » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:37 pm

But, they aren't the same thing. In the Hebrew Faith, the Priest had to be of the Tribe of Levi, specifically. You never had a Jewish Priest, or a Benjaminite Priest, or a Priest or the Tribe of Dan. Egalitarian Arguments on this level make even less sense as the Priesthood wasn't even open to all men, it was highly limited by Tribal affiliation and bloodline. You had to be descended from Aaron.

Yet we want to somehow show modern Churches should let women preach based on Deborah who couldn't have been a Priest of she was a man because she was of the wrong Tribe?


A Prophet is not a Priest, and the Functions are still very, very different.


Even people who support Women prachers agree that Deborah is not a good example. She held no equivolent Position as that of a Minister.

One would have to use somehing in the actual Church to say that women should preach, which this clearly isn't.


Following the Catholic Model, Apostolic Succession and the Priets's ability to act Ex Personal Christi woudl be shatttered, and thus succession woudl be lost. It is a Theologcal impossibility to Ordain women, and to ask them to is askig them to surrender their beleifs.

The same is true of the orthodox, and many Protestant traditions which keep this cycle.

For protestants followng a pastorate Model, you still have the explicit verses statin that women are not to preach, and the men are still seen as a reflection of Jesus as a man, and the Natural Order of this sort of relationshp by nessesity comes down to that. The Churhc is a bride, after all.


Meanwhile, for the Churches of Christ you have the same problem as the Protestants.

Deborah doesn't make all those objections go away any more than Hilary Clinton could if she became President, as no one would link th4e office of President to the Ministry. No one thinks Queen Elizabeth. who rules by the Grace of God, is a good example either. They simply didn't have the same sort of position.

Deborah was a Judge, this is stated in Scripture, and she was a Prophetess, this also is in Scripture, she was not a Priest, and she was not a Rabbi.

Gideon was a man, but he also was not a Priest or Rabbi. Neither was David, neither was Solomon. In this regard, Deborah simply held a position in civil society that should be Honoured, but still makes no real case for women preachers.

you may as well bring up Ruth.

SayaOtonashi
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Re: Deborah stripped of title of "judge" by patriarchalist

Post by SayaOtonashi » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:49 am

IS phoebe is because the Greek word Diakonos which for Paul is translate minster but phoebe deaconess which is impossible since the word is masculine

Translations of Diakonos as “Minister” in the New Testament

In the scriptures below, in every case where the Greek word diakonos is used, it has been translated “minister” when it applies to men such as Paul, Timothy, Epaphras, etc. except for Phoebe in Rom 16:1 where the word diakonos is translated “servant.”

In every case where “servant” has been translated for the men, it comes from the Greek word doulos which means slave – except in the case of Phoebe where servant in Rom. 16:1 was translated “servant” from the Greek masculine word of diakonos.

I Cor 3:5 – Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers (diakonos) by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

II Cor 3:6 –Who also hath made us able ministers (diakonos) of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

II Cor 11:23 – Are they ministers (diakonos) of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

Eph. 3:7 – Are they ministers (diakonos) of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

Eph. 6:21 – But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister (diakonos) in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:

Phil. 1:1 – Paul and Timotheus, the servants (doulos) of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons (diakonos):

Co. 1:7 – As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellow servant (sundoulos), who is for you a faithful minister (diakonos) of Christ;

Col. 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister (diakonos);

I Thes. 3:2 – And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister (diakonos) of God, and our fellow labourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

Titus 4:6 – If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister (diakonos) of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Rom. 16:1 – I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea.

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Re: Deborah stripped of title of "judge" by patriarchalist

Post by Metacrock » Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:50 am

SayaOtonashi wrote:IS phoebe is because the Greek word Diakonos which for Paul is translate minster but phoebe deaconess which is impossible since the word is masculine

Translations of Diakonos as “Minister” in the New Testament

In the scriptures below, in every case where the Greek word diakonos is used, it has been translated “minister” when it applies to men such as Paul, Timothy, Epaphras, etc. except for Phoebe in Rom 16:1 where the word diakonos is translated “servant.”
Yes. we've all noticed that. I think that's just inconsistent.
In every case where “servant” has been translated for the men, it comes from the Greek word doulos which means slave – except in the case of Phoebe where servant in Rom. 16:1 was translated “servant” from the Greek masculine word of diakonos.

I Cor 3:5 – Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers (diakonos) by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

II Cor 3:6 –Who also hath made us able ministers (diakonos) of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

II Cor 11:23 – Are they ministers (diakonos) of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

Eph. 3:7 – Are they ministers (diakonos) of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

Eph. 6:21 – But that ye also may know my affairs, and how I do, Tychicus, a beloved brother and faithful minister (diakonos) in the Lord, shall make known to you all things:

Phil. 1:1 – Paul and Timotheus, the servants (doulos) of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons (diakonos):

Co. 1:7 – As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellow servant (sundoulos), who is for you a faithful minister (diakonos) of Christ;

Col. 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister (diakonos);

I Thes. 3:2 – And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister (diakonos) of God, and our fellow labourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

Titus 4:6 – If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister (diakonos) of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

Rom. 16:1 – I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea.

translations have been biased.
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