This is the real issue: Egalitarian v. Complementarian

Discuss Biblical and theological support for concept that Bible teaches equality between sexes.

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runamokmonk
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Re: This is the real issue: Egalitarian v. Complementarian

Post by runamokmonk » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:15 pm

I may have been misunderstood.

We can be equals in the sense of having the same human dignity, liberty, autonomy and opportunity for self actualization, with economic, political and social equality and yet any differences between peoples wouldn't contradict these things.

I was arguing against the idea that differences in biology or genetics would therefore mean unequal hierarchical social relationships. And as well, I am against the idea of God, theology and philosophical ideas being used to create unequal relationships from rules and laws written on paper.

I am trying to suggest that maybe we should look within our hearts, while also maybe using the general tool of the golden rule, and follow what's inside of us even if it contradicts "God", our understanding of the bible and such.

For me, personally, I can see that there are people whose minds are above mine, either by education, genes, a more accomodating environment, or something else or all of those put together, but in no way does that mean therefore that they ought to rule over me and not treat me as an equal because they know what's best for me. This sort of thing goes with differences in general, I think. In fact doing so would make me even more dependent and less self sufficient.

I don't see a contradiction between differences and equality. Also, I was saying "equality" can be nauseating to me because of this political correctness I've heard where it feels like this false sense of politeness. I was also saying equality itself doesn't move me but liberation does. Yet this liberation still contains the equality I spoke positively of above. The liberation of crushing contraints made by othes ruling over others to their injury is what I mean by liberation. The ability and chance to fully express or actualize yourself to the fullest degree with only the limitations that nature may impose on you such as gravity or some other true "natural" limitation. But even that wouldn't be a true "limitation", that difference would make me the unique human being I am and that perspective which it gives me..

ZAROVE
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Re: This is the real issue: Egalitarian v. Complementarian

Post by ZAROVE » Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:48 pm

Looking into our hearts, and doing what we feel is right, sounds like a lovely idea. But is it?

Our culture is conditioned to think it is, that somehow looking within ourselves, and listening to our Heart, will yield positive results. But the Scriptures say otherwise, to the surprise of many others. Jeremiah 17:9 says the Heart is Deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked, who can know it?

Of coruse, if you follow what you said above, this is written on paper so mayb we shoudl ignroe it and follwo our Hearts anyway. But I've seen peopel who do this wlak away form marriages, or have affairs, because they thought htye were in Love. THe end result was the pain and betrayal of their spouce, and often the new Relaitonsip is wracked by Guilt, and is not as totlaly loving or trusting. It was forged in Darkenss and Evil, and secrets and lies lifted it. Most of the itme, it was roote din Lust, not Love, which results in the inevitable collapse of the Second Marriage.

People can be Gredy. Peopel can be Selfish and Cruel. Peopel can put their own wants and interests above the needs of others or above the Truth.

All of this, because they folow thir Heart.

While I dont suggest the Heart always leads to these things, this is a part of the HEart, and a very obviousl and promenant part.


We need ot listen to Reason, and Tradition, not or HEarts, though, for by it do we find guidance when situaitosn emerge.

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runamokmonk
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Re: This is the real issue: Egalitarian v. Complementarian

Post by runamokmonk » Thu Sep 02, 2010 11:24 pm

The bible says the God will turn out hearts of stone and give us hearts of flesh.

You gave a scripture which says our hearts are deceitful.

You suggested that I follow Reason and Tradition.

At some point I would have to trust in myself to have the ability to understand Reason and also choose the correct Tradition, or to choose one at all. But I can't figure out why I may have any reason to give up that trust once entered into such an atmosphere.



You said to listen to reason. But I do not think reason is in contradiction to listening to your heart. I think it is quite reasonable to question beliefs which disallow women to preach. The first inkling of me questioning such types of thinking would be the intution from my heart that that isn't a great way to treat another person and I wouldn't want to be treated as such myself. So either I follow the golden rule which Jesus espoused us to follow or I follow the letters of words and rules ignoring the golden rule and making myself a hypocrite. Which again, Jesus reserved the most vehemence for.
Of coruse, if you follow what you said above, this is written on paper so mayb we shoudl ignroe it and follwo our Hearts anyway. But I've seen peopel who do this wlak away form marriages, or have affairs, because they thought htye were in Love. THe end result was the pain and betrayal of their spouce, and often the new Relaitonsip is wracked by Guilt, and is not as totlaly loving or trusting. It was forged in Darkenss and Evil, and secrets and lies lifted it. Most of the itme, it was roote din Lust, not Love, which results in the inevitable collapse of the Second Marriage
But this is not the heart of which I am speaking of. I am talking about something which you desire this goodness for others or the world.
I'm not against rules or words written on paper simply because they are paper. I'll follow them if they are self evidently of a higher value.
I could also follow the words spoken of in the bible and interpret them that I as a man am head over my wife with my word being final. I may or may not be following the words and correct interpretation of the bible yet either way I would still be dominating my wife and therefore crushing her ability to self actualize. This in itself would be a sin to me. But it would be even worse because i know I wouldn't want to be in such a relationship if the roles were reversed. I would then be a hypocrite.


We need ot listen to Reason, and Tradition, not or HEarts, though, for by it do we find guidance when situaitosn emerge.


Sure, I'll listen to reason and tradition but when it contradicts a Higher Value which I have found in my heart. I will part ways with tradition and I'll doubt the "Reasoning" being spoken.



I made it clear that what I was talking about was human diginity, respect for others autonomy, and their determination at self actualization are my higher values. I believe this falls under the will toward the good for others even though I am an imperfect person.

ZAROVE
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Re: This is the real issue: Egalitarian v. Complementarian

Post by ZAROVE » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:14 am

But what if the “Higher value” you find in your heart is really juts a cultural convention, that in the end isn’t higher at all?

Is it possible that by ignoring hose parts of the Scripture when we think we have a higher Value to go by are actually right, and our Hearts wrong?

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runamokmonk
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Re: This is the real issue: Egalitarian v. Complementarian

Post by runamokmonk » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:45 am

Well, I don't particularly think it is simply a cultural convention. I take that to mean me being socialized into my culture, I guess. So what I've done by force of circumstance and possibly because of my nature (which my girlfriend thinks is the case) I lost all religion and God and hope a long while ago. I was uneducated, and still am, and so could not rely on any sort of formal education, on top of being raised in a sort counter cultural religion. I had to sort of go around the learned theological and philosphical arguments which I couldn't understand or relate to then (but some of which I found interesting), and rely on my heart and what I desired most which is actually freedom within close community.
Community where I wasn't swallowed up dominated by the group or rulers in such a group. I wanted to livein communities where we were self sufficient yet also relied on each other in positive way not a paternal or patronizing way. Essentially "equals". I wanted the ability to actually have some sort of political and social power and I could only see that as possible in decentralized communities and work places.
This then led into growing more into me feeling this feeling in my heart area when I envision this world where others are also free, in the process of self actualizing themselves and us working in love together, in some sort of real harmony because it's what we want. But I felt terrible because it seemed hopeless and yet it's all I had. And no one else would hear me when I tried my best to talk about what I could see. They said it was these thoughts which caused me the trouble and not the cultural environment. That I needed to adapt.
I then had a religious experience and came to believe that these sorts of things, human diginity, freedom, the "equality" that I spoke of, genuine brotherhood and community which respects the autonomy of the individual and in fact enhances it, is a "Higher Value" than conventional morality. In many ways I was born and raised to see the world from the outside. My girlfriend once told me that I really am an alien, haha. I am no saint at all. So don't get that I am trying to say from this post. I am simply saying that I want these things just because I want them and it confused me very much when others don't want this or laugh at me or don't care because it all seems so simple in so many ways. It seems so fun and joyful. You know, why not? Why have so many educated people got mad at me for saying these things?

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runamokmonk
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Re: This is the real issue: Egalitarian v. Complementarian

Post by runamokmonk » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:55 am

ok, now this is a quote that moves me and it's by an atheist.
“Freedom, morality, and the human dignity of the individual consists precisely in this; that he does good not because he is forced to do so, but because he freely conceives it, wants it, and loves it.”
Bakunin

What I am saying is, is that you want this Higher Value not because you're supposed to or were told to or for a reward but simply because you want it with all your heart because you love it. Because it's who you are.

And I am no saint at all, man. I'm not. I'm a regular person with my issues. I just want other people to look within themselves and I think they may find something really good.

The believe the Higher Value is from God. Even for the atheist, I think.

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Re: This is the real issue: Egalitarian v. Complementarian

Post by ZAROVE » Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:42 pm

But your still looking within at yourself alone. I am perhaps strange in this, but I never anted a community in which I had a voice, never wanted political power, never wanted self actualisation or self reliance or individualism, when it comes to ultimate meaning in life. While I certainly want to be Free to make my own choices and come to my own conclusions, I didn’t think myself particularly important, and certainly don’t focus on myself. I will one day die, and in this life I can be either good or ill, and often am either, or both at once. I am fallible. I am weak. I really in the end can’t be totally self sufficient. The food I eat is bought form stores and grown elsewhere by others. The money I use to buy said Food is itself produced by the Government. Even if I left it all behind, found some mountaintop, where I made my own clothes sand grew my own food, I’d still be reliant on Natural resources around me. I would not be fully independent. I would be reliant. I am OK with this.

All I wanted was to know the Truth, not to feel self actualised, not to pursue some desire of my heart because I wanted it, not to feel important. All I sought was what is, and what is not, without regard for myself. After all, what am I?

I think many people are lead astray by looking into their own hearts, and going with their own desires. They try to shape their beliefs around personal interests and feelings, rather than looking beyond them, and that’s something I never thought wise in seeking what is True.

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KR Wordgazer
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Re: This is the real issue: Egalitarian v. Complementarian

Post by KR Wordgazer » Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:38 pm

runamokmonk said:
The first inkling of me questioning such types of thinking would be the intution from my heart that that isn't a great way to treat another person and I wouldn't want to be treated as such myself. So either I follow the golden rule which Jesus espoused us to follow or I follow the letters of words and rules ignoring the golden rule and making myself a hypocrite.
Bravo, Runamok. It's really very simple-- love God and love one another. And "love one another" means do to them as you would want done to you. If an interpration of a Scripture results in the breaking of one of these, that interpretation is suspect. No matter how many thousands of years old it is.
Wag more.
Bark less.

ZAROVE
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Re: This is the real issue: Egalitarian v. Complementarian

Post by ZAROVE » Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:54 pm

But by this logic, we woudl be braking the two commandments by denyign anyone somethign that they want. At leats if I interpet this correctly.


If I were a woman Id not ask to preach. I f I did ask to, and was told I could not, I'd not see this as a Violation of those two, because the justification is that it violates the prnciples of the Scriptures I'd expound.


One cannot "Do unto others" in such a fashion that it permits sin, and thats the biggest problem with such interpretations.

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runamokmonk
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Re: This is the real issue: Egalitarian v. Complementarian

Post by runamokmonk » Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:02 am

But by this logic, we woudl be braking the two commandments by denyign anyone somethign that they want. At leats if I interpet this correctly.
But we're talking about people asking to be treated "equally" or, to be free from anothers control or domination, so that they can more fully participate in equal relationships where their perceptions and views are heard, and they take part in creating their environment.



If I were a woman Id not ask to preach. I f I did ask to, and was told I could not, I'd not see this as a Violation of those two, because the justification is that it violates the prnciples of the Scriptures I'd expound.

As I understand, the two commandments you referred to above are loving God and loving others. Women who want to be free and be treated as equal to men in all relationships are saying that they take issue with traditional roles which they now view as constraining and want to be free to further actualize themselves. If I was one of these women I'd likely have the view that such relationships were patronizing and lack freedom and so feel, and see, my human diginity and autonomy as being violated.
I think the command to desire the good for others would fall well within the realms of reason to treat them as they are asking to be treated and not doing so as breaking the commandment.
One cannot "Do unto others" in such a fashion that it permits sin, and thats the biggest problem with such interpretations.
I see sin as ruling over others to their injury. At least with this sort of issue. I mean, if someone is saying that they feel injured, even if it is from tradition or, expounded or interpeted from the bible, it should be within reason to question the very things which is being accused of being injurious. The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath?

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