Reading on decline

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

Moderator:Metacrock

Kane Augustus
Posts:120
Joined:Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:25 pm
Re: Literal vs. literary

Post by Kane Augustus » Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:52 am

Metacrock wrote:no atheists don't believe its figurative they believe it's bull shit. Saying it's figurative implies there's a value to it. Every time i try to argue that with atheists most of them erupt.
I agree with FleetMouse that atheists consider the bible to be figurative. By that, I mean that most atheists look at the bible as a concatenation of ancient stories; folktales cobbled together to enhance the philosophical backdrop of the Middle Eastern littoral culture. And because I think FleetMouse is correct in that assessment, I also think you are correct, Metacrock, when you state that being "figurative implies there's a value to it." That is, the value underpinning the bible as a set of figurative stories is the social solidarity those stories promote amongst the people those stories were directed at.

ZAROVE
Posts:412
Joined:Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: Reading on decline

Post by ZAROVE » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:13 pm

Anyone who thinks the Bible is any one thing has clearly not studied it…


Saying “The Bible is Figurative” means that none of its true in an actual real world sense, which something Historians would argue against.


Things like the Babylonian Captivity or life of Jesus or missionary Journeys of Paul aren’t folktales cobbled together.

The Bible is a combination of different books, many in completely different Genres. The Psalms are Song-Poems, and thus have a lot of Figurative expression in them, but the Gospels are Biographies. You can’t read the Psalms in exactly the same way as the Gospels. You can’t read Proverbs like you would Isaiah. If you tried to read these books as if they were all the same the whole thing would make no sense whatsoever. It’d be a dreadful mess.

You should treat each book of the Bible separately and know what your reading in advance, to know how to read it.

If an Ahteist thinks the whole Bible is figurative, and a collection fo folktales, legend, and myths, he proves he’s not read it.

Kane Augustus
Posts:120
Joined:Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: Reading on decline

Post by Kane Augustus » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:21 pm

ZAROVE wrote:Anyone who thinks the Bible is any one thing has clearly not studied it…


Saying “The Bible is Figurative” means that none of its true in an actual real world sense, which something Historians would argue against.


Things like the Babylonian Captivity or life of Jesus or missionary Journeys of Paul aren’t folktales cobbled together.

The Bible is a combination of different books, many in completely different Genres. The Psalms are Song-Poems, and thus have a lot of Figurative expression in them, but the Gospels are Biographies. You can’t read the Psalms in exactly the same way as the Gospels. You can’t read Proverbs like you would Isaiah. If you tried to read these books as if they were all the same the whole thing would make no sense whatsoever. It’d be a dreadful mess.

You should treat each book of the Bible separately and know what your reading in advance, to know how to read it.

If an Ahteist thinks the whole Bible is figurative, and a collection fo folktales, legend, and myths, he proves he’s not read it.
This is simplistic reasoning, unfortunately. I've studied the bible and Christianity for nigh-on 20 years now. I've read through the bible multiple times, and in different translations (including the Greek). But reading things that are purported biographies, as you state the gospels are, does not remove them from the realm of possible fictions or figurative representations. For example, a good many of the ancient mythologies (Greek, Egyptian, Norse, et al.) are biographical and allegorical in nature. They speak authoritatively about their focus -- but they're still figurative; they're still fictional.

Did Jesus exist? I think so. Was he God? My personal opinion is 'no'. And I think that what you consider to be biographies, I consider to be embellishments about a man who was significantly well-loved by some and, like many profound men of history, equally well-hated by others. Does this mean there is no biographical content in the stories of Jesus? No. However, stating that doesn't remove them from the sphere of figurative accounts, or embellishments, as it were.

ZAROVE
Posts:412
Joined:Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: Reading on decline

Post by ZAROVE » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:43 pm

Thats not really the point I made.

My point was simply that you can't read each book in the Bible as if its just a Chapter in an overall book, thats all consistent in style and flow. The Gospel of Mark can't be read and understood if you try reading them in exactly the same way you would the Psalms.The Truth is they aren't the same book, or the same genre, or even the same Author, or time period.

Just as you can't read the Constitution of the United States and the Biography of George Washington in the same fashion, you can't read the differing books in the Bible as if they are the same sort of thing.

Also, Historians would scoff at the idea that Jesus didn't exist, and I know of no ancient Biographers of Dyonisus. There are myths to be sure about his life, but they aren't written in the same style.

The Iliad tells of Achilles, but it snot in a Biographical manner. Its an Epic Poem, and should be read as such.

Kane Augustus
Posts:120
Joined:Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: Reading on decline

Post by Kane Augustus » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:00 pm

ZAROVE wrote:Thats not really the point I made.

My point was simply that you can't read each book in the Bible as if its just a Chapter in an overall book, thats all consistent in style and flow. The Gospel of Mark can't be read and understood if you try reading them in exactly the same way you would the Psalms.The Truth is they aren't the same book, or the same genre, or even the same Author, or time period.
Very good, then. We agree to that much.
ZAROVE wrote:Also, Historians would scoff at the idea that Jesus didn't exist, and I know of no ancient Biographers of Dyonisus. There are myths to be sure about his life, but they aren't written in the same style.

The Iliad tells of Achilles, but it snot in a Biographical manner. Its an Epic Poem, and should be read as such.
That is all well and fine, but I think it fails to take into account the fact that you have inherited, through many strains and successions, the Western mindset birthed by the ancient Greeks. The ancient Hebrew mindset was different. For example, you parse the scriptures with a linear eye toward what such-and-such a book is, and what it is not. That is logical, and typically Greek (which is not bad, understand). The ancient Hebrew mindset was very much a latteral mode of thinking: Rabbi Hillel, for example, enjoined his students to interpret scriptures freely and allegorically, and without an eye to past concerns, but with an eye to moulding scripture into something relevant for the time.

As such, it is best to regard scripture with an equal eye toward the linear and the latteral renditions. Scripture, in that sense, is no doubt artful, but any different than a compendium of littoral mythologies that have been spiced up with little facts here and there.

ZAROVE
Posts:412
Joined:Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:07 pm

Re: Reading on decline

Post by ZAROVE » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:14 pm

I'd reccomend you get ot know me before you assume you know how I think. It may surprise you.

Kane Augustus
Posts:120
Joined:Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: Reading on decline

Post by Kane Augustus » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:41 pm

ZAROVE wrote:I'd reccomend you get ot know me before you assume you know how I think. It may surprise you.
Fair enough.

I look forward to seeing how you think.

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