How to read the bible

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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socrates
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by socrates » Sat Jun 18, 2011 10:57 am

Metacrock wrote:
Let me check that I understand you. So on reading something like, let us say, Leviticus, the first task would be a historical enquiry, the purpose of which would be to understand the cultural mores of the time well enough to see how these may have distorted the human / divine encounters that took place. Once we can see the influence of purely 'cultural' influences, we can subtract them from the written word in order that we may see clearly the divine message. It could perhaps be described as the task of clearing the lenses of bronze age dust so that the divine light may shine forth brightly. Would that be a fair way of putting it?
Yes that's a good way to put it. Also we have to decide about the genre. Is it meant to be a serious work or is it a spoof perhaps, a parody, mythology or history? In the Narrative structure one often finds universal aspects emerging though katarsis. So the next step would be to seek out the universal themes, because that's where we are going to find the universal ethics. So we need to undersatnd it as literature.
It occurs to me that this presents us with a further problem. Can we assume the existence of a class of cultural rules, mores, laws, injunctions etc... that would be approved of by the divine? If so, it would be incorrect to regard these as mere cultural products, as 'bronze age dust' that need to be subtracted from the message. To remove these would be to sweep away some of what is valuable and divine along with the unnecessary dust. In which case we are backto our original difficulty, that of separating the divine from the human. How do we set about deciding which of the injunctions are to be dismissed as mere cultural dust and which must be retained as divine? I am, incidentally, confining my question to those parts of the bible which offer moral guidance or law, rather than the histories, the parodies, the mythologies...
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by socrates » Sat Jun 18, 2011 11:09 am

sgttomas wrote:
Yeah, sure! Years and years of study of the classical works of source material and derivative knowledge, rhetorical techniques, quranic arabic language, and biographies of previous scholars taken from masters of the subjects who studied with people, who studied with people, who studied with the Companions of the Prophet, who studied directly with the Prophet of ALLAH, may ALLAH send peace and blessings upon him. Volumes of knowledge. Phenomenal memories - complete memorization of the entire Quran, its meanings and reasons for revelation, in addition to thousands of reported sayings and actions from the Beloved of ALLAH, Muhammad, may ALLAH send peace and blessings upon him. Pure hearts (in my case, but I assume better for you). And (in your case), belief in the prophethood of Muhammad, may ALLAH send peace and blessings upon him.
I wonder if you might be able to expand a little on the actual approach that needs to be taken to discover the true moral guidance of the Qur'an. What I mean is this. Your response is very well laden with nouns and noun phrases - "classical works", "source material", "biographies"... all of which I am sure are of crucial relevance but, so far, your account is a little light in verbs, light in what is actually done with all these materials at ones disposal. In fact, so far, we have only the two verbs 'study' and 'memorize', the first of which, I am sure you would agree, could do with clarification.

So please, if you know the answer, what is it that scholars actually do with these materials, that allows them to discover the true moral guidance intended by Allah?
"An honest man is always a child."

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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Sat Jun 18, 2011 12:04 pm

Okay, here is step one. Purify your intention to gain knowledge for the sake of ALLAH alone. Submit your self to ALLAH. Believe in Him, His Angels, His Messengers, His Books, the Day of Judgment, the Afterlife, and Divine Destiny. Then submit yourself to what the Prophet taught, completely and with all of your heart. And learn the Quran and Prophetic teachings from those who learned it from those who learned it from the Prophet. Memorize these teachings verbatim and conduct your life in accordance with these teachings until your masters give you permission to study on your own. This shall be your approach to true moral guidance. Learn what was taught, precisely and exactly as it was taught, change none of it, have no opinion of it except that it is true and submit yourself to it.

This is the first step in attaining knowledge in Islam. There is enough here just to memorize literally and apply strictly as it was taught to last you a lifetime. And if ALLAH gives you a way to further knowledge then none can bar you from it. This is how Islam has existed from inception until now. Hear and obey.

Happy submitting! :)

Peace,
-sgttomas
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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Re: How to read the bible

Post by mdsimpson92 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:47 pm

socrates wrote:It occurs to me that this presents us with a further problem. Can we assume the existence of a class of cultural rules, mores, laws, injunctions etc... that would be approved of by the divine? If so, it would be incorrect to regard these as mere cultural products, as 'bronze age dust' that need to be subtracted from the message. To remove these would be to sweep away some of what is valuable and divine along with the unnecessary dust. In which case we are backto our original difficulty, that of separating the divine from the human. How do we set about deciding which of the injunctions are to be dismissed as mere cultural dust and which must be retained as divine? I am, incidentally, confining my question to those parts of the bible which offer moral guidance or law, rather than the histories, the parodies, the mythologies...
True, you do need to take context into account. I remember that Spinoza declared that the laws were originally meant to be temporary and viewed as part of a constitution. The work is called "A Critique of Traditional Religion"
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by Metacrock » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:47 am

Not to put down his view but Sg Tom is actually a Muslim so he's not talking about the Bible. What the heck, I imagine one Holy book is like another.
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:20 pm

In this case, the holy book makes claim to being in whole, not in part, the literal, actual, speech of God; uncreated, preexistent, eternal, inexorable and inimitable. I know that even the most ardent fundamentalist Christian doesn't ascribe that character to the Bible (how could they?!?) - at least not all of it. Maybe other books make that claim. The clincher is whether or not it actually is. To claim it is one thing, to be it is another. But if it is, then no, not all holy books are the same, and the Quran is different from most (all?) for even claiming this.

So this would definitely change how one would go about reading it.

...I'm pretty sure socrates knew I was talking about the Quran.

-sgtt
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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Re: How to read the bible

Post by socrates » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:06 am

sgttomas wrote:Okay, here is step one. Purify your intention to gain knowledge for the sake of ALLAH alone. Submit your self to ALLAH. Believe in Him, His Angels, His Messengers, His Books, the Day of Judgment, the Afterlife, and Divine Destiny. Then submit yourself to what the Prophet taught, completely and with all of your heart. And learn the Quran and Prophetic teachings from those who learned it from those who learned it from the Prophet. Memorize these teachings verbatim and conduct your life in accordance with these teachings until your masters give you permission to study on your own. This shall be your approach to true moral guidance. Learn what was taught, precisely and exactly as it was taught, change none of it, have no opinion of it except that it is true and submit yourself to it.

This is the first step in attaining knowledge in Islam. There is enough here just to memorize literally and apply strictly as it was taught to last you a lifetime. And if ALLAH gives you a way to further knowledge then none can bar you from it. This is how Islam has existed from inception until now. Hear and obey.

Happy submitting! :)

Peace,
-sgttomas
Many thanks once again for your answer. So are you saying that the approach to gaining moral guidance from the Qur'an is actually a very simple one, a simple case of submitting to what is written? Of course, you have also added that this submission involves matters such as intention purification, memorising and strict adherence. But are you saying that the task of actually discovering the truth about how one should behave is extremely simple - just read it - it's obvious! (at least for most statements, for these are Muhkamat)? For most statements governing conduct to be found in the Qur'an, there is no room for interpretation - their truth is obvious. Is that the position?
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by socrates » Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:21 am

sgttomas wrote:In this case, the holy book makes claim to being in whole, not in part, the literal, actual, speech of God; uncreated, preexistent, eternal, inexorable and inimitable. I know that even the most ardent fundamentalist Christian doesn't ascribe that character to the Bible (how could they?!?) - at least not all of it. Maybe other books make that claim. The clincher is whether or not it actually is. To claim it is one thing, to be it is another. But if it is, then no, not all holy books are the same, and the Quran is different from most (all?) for even claiming this.

So this would definitely change how one would go about reading it.

...I'm pretty sure socrates knew I was talking about the Quran.

-sgtt
Yes, thank you. I realise we are discussing the Qur'an.

I like your succinct distinction - "To claim it is one thing, to be it is another." Would you be able to tell me how one should go about estabishing which of these alternatives are true of the Qur'an? How does one establish whether the Qur'an actually "is" this or whether muslims merely "claim" this? Presumably, the same approach could be used to discover whether the Bible actually "is" this or whether certain fundamentalist Christians merely "claim" this?
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:24 pm

socrates wrote:Many thanks once again for your answer. So are you saying that the approach to gaining moral guidance from the Qur'an is actually a very simple one, a simple case of submitting to what is written? Of course, you have also added that this submission involves matters such as intention purification, memorising and strict adherence. But are you saying that the task of actually discovering the truth about how one should behave is extremely simple - just read it - it's obvious! (at least for most statements, for these are Muhkamat)? For most statements governing conduct to be found in the Qur'an, there is no room for interpretation - their truth is obvious. Is that the position?
All thanks and praise is for ALLAH, who created us and taught us knowledge. :)

The approach to gaining moral guidance from the Quran is to learn at the feet of a scholar from the prophetic tradition. One of the wives of the Prophet, may ALLAH bless him and his family and grant them peace, said that he was a "walking Quran". Of course, there are also very clear moral edicts in the Quran, and one can attain nearness to ALLAH by reciting it (in Arabic) and understanding its meanings.

Regarding what is clear and what isn't clear, let's go back to that verse. If it was itself a mutashabihat verse, what good is it? What is clear is clear.

"They seek a ruling from you. Say, “Allah gives you the ruling concerning Kalālah . If a person dies having no son, but he does have a sister, then, she will get one half of what he leaves. (On the other hand) He will inherit her if she has no child. If they are two (sisters), they will get two third of what he leaves. If they are brothers and sisters, both male and female, then, the male will get a share equal to that of two females.” Allah explains to you, lest you should go astray. Allah has full knowledge of everything."

-sgtt
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:40 pm

socrates wrote: I like your succinct distinction - "To claim it is one thing, to be it is another." Would you be able to tell me how one should go about estabishing which of these alternatives are true of the Qur'an? How does one establish whether the Qur'an actually "is" this or whether muslims merely "claim" this? Presumably, the same approach could be used to discover whether the Bible actually "is" this or whether certain fundamentalist Christians merely "claim" this?

All of the arguments put forth for the Quran being the literal speech of ALLAH can be found in the Quran. I invite you to read a translation as you can scarcely go ten verses without encountering one. To summarize a few:

1. If you doubt it is the speech of ALLAH, then reproduce a Quran like it (but you probably don't speak Arabic).
2. Read of the signs in the Quran of which none other than ALLAH could have knowledge.
3. Observe the life of the Prophet and consider if any other than a Prophet of ALLAH could have delivered this message and accomplished what he accomplished.
4. Understand the rationale of explaining the Oneness of ALLAH, and the calling to Islam, who but a true Prophet would tell us of this God and this religion?
5. See the signs in Nature: ALLAH there is no god but He. If you accept that, then what inconsistency is there in the vessel that delivered this knowledge?

"Had We sent down this Qur’ān to a mountain, you would have seen it humbled, burst apart out of awe for Allah. We cite such examples for people, so that they may ponder. He is Allah, besides whom there is no god, the Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is All-Merciful, Very-Merciful. He is Allah, besides whom there is no god, the Sovereign, the Supreme-In-Holiness, the Safe (from all defects), the Giver-Of-Peace, the Guardian, the All-Mighty, the All-Repairer, the Sublime. Pure is Allah from what they associate with Him. He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor, the Shaper. His are the Most Beautiful Names. His purity is proclaimed by all that is in the heavens and the earth, and He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."

As for the Bible and Christianity, you can't use the same criteria. You could try, but Islam has authentic and pure teachings, preserved from the source; and no linguistic comparison has ever been accepted between the two.

"GOD – there is no deity save Him, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsistent Fount of All Being! Step by step has He bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, setting forth the truth which confirms whatever there still remains [of earlier revelations]: for it is He who has bestowed from on high the Torah and the Gospel."

-sgtt
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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