KJV or NIV?

[sgttomas]

Ooh, you wouldn't like it - Closing of the Western Mind by Charles Freeman. It's not exclusively about Paul - there's a chapter on him. He's an interesting character.

Sounds like an interesting book.

...what about this one?

-sgtt

[sgttomas]

.. and yes, I am shamefully aware of my lack of knowledge of Islam whenever I get in these discussions with you. But agree that, prima facie, the Qur'an would seem to have a more defensible claim than the xian texts to be the V-P inspiration 'Word of God' as you suggest above(?)

Ooooohh....no, it can't be called V-P based on the definitions I read. For a Muslim it is nothing less than the literal Word of God. I mean God's words. His speech. Uncreated. Eternal, preexistent.

It's just.... well, is that - VP inspiration - how God ought'a communicate with us? (Even tho, many xian fundies would have the same expectation of Him that you do, it seems, it's STILL an open question! )

This is not another book among religious books. This is a word from God that claims to be perfect, utterly distinct from human speech, inexorable and unalterable.

"Read with the name of your Lord who created (every thing), He created man from a clot of blood. Read, and your Lord is the most gracious, who imparted knowledge by means of the pen. He taught man what he did not know."

Bismillah al-Rahman al-Rahim....

Peace,
-sgttomas

[met]

.. and yes, I am shamefully aware of my lack of knowledge of Islam whenever I get in these discussions with you. But agree that, prima facie, the Qur'an would seem to have a more defensible claim than the xian texts to be the V-P inspiration 'Word of God' as you suggest above(?)

Ooooohh....no, it can't be called V-P based on the definitions I read. For a Muslim it is nothing less than the literal Word of God. I mean God's words. His speech. Uncreated. Eternal, preexistent.


Peace,
-sgttomas

So then, the Qur'an IS the Word for a Muslim?

[sgttomas]

I don't want you to confuse the terminology you use for Christ with that of the Quran, so let's not quite put it that way. Here is the translated statements from a standard reference text on Islamic dogmas:

The Quran is the speech of Allah, not something created which must therefore die out, nor the attribute of something created which must therefore come to an end.

And here is a more expansive version from the other standard reference text on Islamic dogmas:

The Qur’an is the word of Allah. It came from Him as speech without it being possible to say how. He sent it down on His Messenger as revelation. The believers accept it, as absolute truth. They are certain that it is, in truth, the word of Allah. It is not created, as is the speech of human beings, and anyone who hears it and claims that it is human speech has become an unbeliever. Allah warns him and censures him and threatens him with Fire when He says, Exalted is He:
‘I will burn him in the Fire.’ (74: 26)

When Allah threatens with the Fire those who say

‘This is just human speech’ (74: 25)

We know for certain that it is the speech of the Creator of mankind and that it is totally unlike the speech of mankind. We do not argue about the Qur’an and we bear witness that it is the speech of the Lord of all the Worlds which the Trustworthy Spirit came down with and taught the most honoured of all the Messengers, Muhammad, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. It is the speech of Allah and no speech of any created being is comparable to it. We do not say that it was created and we do not go against the Jama’ah of the Muslims regarding it.

And the whole of what is proven from the Prophet, upon him be peace, regarding the Shari’ah and the explanation (of the Qur’an and of Islam) is true.

- - - -

-sgtt

[KR Wordgazer]

Sgt, I'm curious. Do all Muslims believe this, or are there different camps regarding the nature of the Quran as there are different camps in Christianity regarding the nature of the Bible?

[sgttomas]

You'll always find fringe groups, but no, essentially this is what all Muslims believe. Actually, if you don't believe this you aren't a Muslim (but people will call themselves all sorts of things). There was a very early controversy by the governing authorities of the Islamic state that wanted to impose the believe that the Quran was created. This was utterly opposed by those who taught the prophetic teachings.

Nowadays, when most people are dreadfully ignorant, you'll find all kinds of things believed and taught because people have resorted to their own opinions instead of the prophetic tradition. But still this is the overwhelming majority belief of Muslims today and throughout history. Just by demographics, the Sunni and Shia groups compose 95% (+/-) of Muslims and the traditional teachings of these groups is that the Quran is literally God's Word. But there is no "church teaching" per se, just scholarly debate and consensus, and then us lowly followers.

For speakers of Arabic, the claim the Quran makes of itself is that no one can even produce a chapter like the Quran. Of the many "proofs" of its divine status, the inimitability of the Quran was held as preeminent at the time of the Prophet (when linguistics and poetry were so prized by the tribes of Arabia). I don't speak Arabic; there are other signs, for people who reflect

Peace,
-sgttomas

[KR Wordgazer]

Ok. I'm not asking this to challenge you, but it's something I can't help wondering about. We discussed this once when you first became a Muslim, and you didn't really have an answer then. I'm wondering, if this is the perfect word of Allah, what you do with texts like the one that says a husband can beat his wife (however "lightly"!") and deny her the marriage bed if he doesn't like the way she's behaving?

In light of this absolute form of inspiration, can one assert Allah was accommodating the culture of the times? I know non-fundamentalist Muslims do not advocate this kind of treatment of wives. What is their reasoning?

[sgttomas]

This is a great example, actually. I'm just heading out camping for the weekend, but I know you want a good answer to this and not one I can scrawl down in a few minutes.



Peace,
-sgttomas

[sgttomas]

In the name of ALLAH, the Beneficent, the Merciful. (eta...please also read part 2 which I posted in a second reply....what you might distill from this - very roughly speaking - is that part 1 is the law and part 2 is the spirit of the law within me).

what you do with texts like the one that says a husband can beat his wife (however "lightly"!") and deny her the marriage bed if he doesn't like the way she's behaving?

In light of this absolute form of inspiration, can one assert Allah was accommodating the culture of the times? I know non-fundamentalist Muslims do not advocate this kind of treatment of wives. What is their reasoning?

What I do with the text is I listen to what the scholars have said on the matter, seeking their guidance and following what they command. I can totally sympathize with your problems over the word "beat". I wish it wasn't used in english translations, as no matter what one understands in the Arabic, the connotation of "beat" in English is "abuse". So it doesn't matter what the rest of the chapter may say regarding good conduct and good character that would shape this verse and reform a person's heart towards mercy; the word "beat" stands out as ALLAH saying that we should "beat our wives" - and I seek refuge from Satan the Accursed from such implications.

No one was more of a fundamentalist Muslim than the Beloved of ALLAH, the Prophet Muhammad, may ALLAH send peace and blessings upon him and his family. A Muslim is required to strive to acquire his character. It is reported through authentic chains of transmission that the Prophet said:

- I have been sent for the perfection of good conduct.
- The most perfect in faith is one who has the best manners; and the best of you are those who are best to their wives.
- The best among you will never beat women.

The context in which the verse should be understood is that which has been conveyed to us by the Prophet, and collected and explained by the scholars. The scholars of this religion are those who teach on the authority of and by the permission of their teachers, who received permission from their teachers, who received permission from the Prophet himself. Similarly, the condition of one's heart and one's conduct should be that of the Prophet, may ALLAH send His peace and blessings upon him and his family. And so also this purification of one's heart comes through chains of transmission, with permission for instruction given accordingly. The ones who are not of this path of knowledge are not rightly upon the path of this religion, rather they are following their own speculation or desires and subsequently the Prophetic knowledge and/or character is lacking.

Mufti Taqi Usmani reports in his explanation of the Quran on these verses (summarized by me): Men have a position of authority over women, and women have rights over a man's wealth and provisions of security. Women and men operate in this arrangement with the expectation of agreement and pleasure. Under this principle, should a wife contravene the marriage arrangement, or commit a grave sin, then the husband has been given instruction on how to resolve this matter before taking the matter public. One is not required to apply these steps, but should a person seek means of exercising his authority over his wife, this is how it shall occur. Following the previous steps, should nothing be resolved, then the strike shall not cause any harm, physical mark, or be applied to the face, and that its intent is a symbolic gesture, not a means of beating her into submission. And if this process reconciles the two, the husband cannot hold any of the subsequent actions of the wife against her (from the point of the initial disobedience). And the woman who fears abuse can seek arbitration, and the husband who finds his wife unrelenting should seek arbitration. And ALLAH has power over all things and will hold us to account for that which we did against His Mercy and Justice.

As to why the verse exists at all, then, and particularly about your question of cultural accommodation, I can't say; I don't know.

It is reported from the Messenger of ALLAH, may ALLAH grant him blessings and peace, that he said, "Shall I not inform you about the person who is forbidden from the Fire and for whom the Fire is forbidden? Anyone who is close to people, soft and lenient." So the reason why I don't beat my wife (and I consider myself a fundamentalist) is because I love ALLAH and the Prophet and fear the Hellfire. The only context I can understand actually applying the conditions of that verse would be on a matter so plainly obvious where my wife was terribly in error that I feared for her own condition on the Day of Judgment were she not to cease the behaviour (like committing adultery, or slandering the Prophet). Further I could not have a trace of anger or pride within me, for fear of the consequences for my own self. It is reported from the Messenger of ALLAH, may ALLAH bless him and grant him peace, that he said:

- The one with the smallest trace of pride shall not enter Paradise.
- The powerful is not he who knocks down others; undoubtedly the powerful is the one who controls himself in a fit of anger.
- When one of you becomes angry while standing, he should sit down. If his anger subsides, well and good; otherwise he should lie-down.
- Whoever is deprived of kindness is deprived of all good.

This method is given to us to avoid arguing and harsh words that worsen the situation and make reconciliation hard. A husband should not exchange bad words to his wife, but inform her in a plain and kind way of his displeasure with her, and then leave her alone in bed, but not abandon her, or isolate her completely, and then use a symbolic physical act. So one who, in an argument over something, grabs his wife has broken the command of ALLAH. This verse exists in a vast milieu of character traits and behavioural norms that haven't been mentioned (like upholding the dignity of others, not arguing with others, not saying harsh words about others, being generous with others, being quick to forgive, etc.). And I can't tell you about the extent of which acts merit a response of authority by the husband versus which merit a response of humility and submission by him to her. You would need to consult a scholar for that. I just know my wife and I aspire to be good Muslims and that we accommodate each other in an equitable manner in line with what we know of Islamic principles, and that our marriage is a happy one.

Regarding culture, Islam definitely has a notion of gender roles. The culture of Medina which existed at the time of the Prophet is the ideal culture. Here are some excellent scholarly reflections upon culture, gender, and Islam:

-Some Islamic Perspectives on Gender
-Gender and Gentility
-Islam, Marriage, Gender and Sexuality

Peace,
-sgttomas

[sgttomas]

...I want to add one other thing. I'm telling you this, because this is what is in my heart. I'm not saying this is true, or that this is more right that what I posted before. What I posted before is valid to the extent that I accurately conveyed what the scholars have said on the matter. I'm just saying this is what is in my heart, that to seek knowledge and counsel from a scholar of sound training and sound heart is what is proper, and that ALLAH knows best.

The Prophet taught us this religion. The shariah sets a bare-minimum standard for us, while emulation of the Prophet's noble character, may ALLAH bless him and grant him peace, is what we aspire to, because this is the condition of having a heart that is most pleasing to ALLAH, and is the greatest emulation of His Exalted characteristics, Glorious and Exalted is He.

So we have for us those who marry for valid Islamic reasons: the husband seeking an acceptable means of having sex, and the woman an acceptable means of deriving wealth and security. These are the most base reasons, but they are valid. We have desires and Islam gives us valid ways of satisfying them (to a large extent). As this marriage is a marriage of convenience, and not principles, let alone love, there is a hierarchy of wills that becomes established. The husband is domineering and the wife submissive. It's a pattern I'm sure you know too well, and it's a situation that the Prophet deplored. Or else you have an emotionally manipulative wife and a submissive male who lets himself be psychologically abused. I don't think we can just look at that verse and say that it is just about abusive husbands; it's also about abusive wives. How do you regulate out this from human behaviour? You can set all the laws you want and it will still happen. Instead, the shariah acknowledges the situation but gives regulations for the behaviour that have a better chance at regulating the behaviour, more so than appeals to love. The higher principles are taught and emphasized and given priority at every opportunity, but there is a fall-back to a bare minimum standard that regulates a step-by-step approach to minimize the damage done by either party. And further, there is an encouragement to seek intervention once this basic process isn't working, and to separate with good terms between one another if it becomes apparent that the relationship isn't tenable, with a legal framework established for who has the right to seek separation and under what terms.

All I know of this religion is the highest principle of love, and a program for eliminating my pride and controlling my base desires - channeling them into worship of ALLAH. I love my wife and she loves me. The Prophet loved his wives and they loved him. Some men don't love their wives, but they want their wives all the same. Some women don't love their husbands, but they want their husbands all the same. Giving a gradual progression of behaviours to move one away from something undesirable to something more desirable is a pragmatic accommodation that is found elsewhere in principles of jurisprudence. So we have that a man is instructed to take steps that incline him away from immediate emotional responses, limit how he may physically express himself, and set a precedent for a wife to separate from him if he contravenes these steps. And we have a heirarchy of wills that is established with the man in the position of the authority and the woman submissive to him (and in turn the man is completely submissive to his mother, btw...). This is the accommodation for the human reality, while inclining one to better behaviour, and all the time making the appeal to aspire to love. This is what I know of Islam. It meets you where you are and gives you a way to become better by working with your nature before overcoming it.

And ALLAH knows best. And I seek forgiveness for what I have said that is false. All you should take from this is that this is what is in my heart, and whatever inclines you to further study, I pray that you find your answers from someone who is following in the footsteps of the Prophet and can guide you appropriately.

-sgtt