Can God know the future?

[mdsimpson92]

Also, it begs the question of whether God is completely outside time or partially temporal.

God can still know the future if he's not outside of time. He would know it probabilistically.

Right, probabilistically, and he would logically know each of those possibility, what he wouldn't ABSOLUTELY know what will happen. That would make sense.

[Metacrock]

Also, it begs the question of whether God is completely outside time or partially temporal.

God can still know the future if he's not outside of time. He would know it probabilistically.

Right, probabilistically, and he would logically know each of those possibility, what he wouldn't ABSOLUTELY know what will happen. That would make sense.

that's right. But since there does seem to be something to the idea of space/time and they do take multiverse seriously, then there probably is a reason to think God is outside of time.

[met]

that's right. But since there does seem to be something to the idea of space/time and they do take multiverse seriously, then there probably is a reason to think God is outside of time.

What IS the present and the future in the first place? Time is hard to understand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... Tm55Y&NR=1

[Metacrock]

that's right. But since there does seem to be something to the idea of space/time and they do take multiverse seriously, then there probably is a reason to think God is outside of time.

What IS the present and the future in the first place? Time is hard to understand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... Tm55Y&NR=1

I agree. some say it's just the rate of change in decay of matter. I don't know

[met]

It might not be possible to know. The 'fish in water' problem. But I don't think most open theists or process theists are so motivated by the difficulty of describing what 'outside time' looks like as Miles is, more by the theodicy issues around God's foreknowledge. (Just as i was saying above.... )

[Metacrock]

It might not be possible to know. The 'fish in water' problem. But I don't think most open theists or process theists are so motivated by the difficulty of describing what 'outside time' looks like as Miles is, more by the theodicy issues around God's foreknowledge. (Just as i was saying above.... )

Yes I think that is probably true. I have a hunch that there's more to time than the just the rate of change as well. I read a book about time once, by guy named Frausure. Time the Familiar Stranger. He says there different levels of time, clock time, decay of particles, rate of change in the natural world, and so on.

[met]

I remember learning Hartshorne 's free will argument from Urbie - on HTWA, must have been about 9-10 years ago now - "if I know indisputably that tomorrow you will do X, is there any sense in which tomorrow you will be free to NOT do X?" I thought that was pretty devastating. If anything is known with certainty about the future, then the future must be as fixed as the past. No matter if God exists inside or outside of time, if he has perfect foreknowledge, no place exists for free will at all.

But, as that video I linked points out, some results in quantum theory / particle physics suggest or can be interpreted to demonstrate even the past may not be fixed, in some mind-bending way.

.... maybe all bets are off now?

[Metacrock]

I remember learning Hartshorne 's free will argument from Urbie - on HTWA, must have been about 9-10 years ago now - "if I know indisputably that tomorrow you will do X, is there any sense in which tomorrow you will be free to NOT do X?" I thought that was pretty devastating. If anything is known with certainty about the future, then the future must be as fixed as the past. No matter if God exists inside or outside of time, if he has perfect foreknowledge, no place exists for free will at all.

But, as that video I linked points out, some results in quantum theory / particle physics suggest or can be interpreted to demonstrate even the past may not be fixed, in some mind-bending way.

.... maybe all bets are off now?

If God is inside time then there is no prefect foreknowledge becasue there is no future yet. It hasn't happened yet. foreknowledge would just be probability and that can't be perfect, becuase it has to have cracks (by definition it's only probable).

My thing about a thought in the mind of God also has the same out. since time is just a bench mark for our benefit it has no more hold over God than a day dream has over us, there's some other gadget for change for God from the divine point of view. Foreknowledge doesn't have to be perfect and the futuer is not a done deal in that scheme because God is the venue of beyond time rather than being subject to the venue.