The Imputation of Sin and Righteousness

[sgttomas]

Heh, just coz I haven't posted in the last two hours?!?!?!

I gotcha tho...

[sgttomas]

Well, I would agree with you that faith is an attribute of faith.

Ha! Dang, well 6 / 7 ain't bad

peace, hope, good chili????!?! ...gentleness....argh, come here Ephesians! ....GALATIANS?!?!? Lordy, been a while since I cracked my bible open, I guess.


...Hey, I did not too bad though. Faith is one of them! And I split up "longsuffering" into "patience and self control". Yay me!

What made you leave Christianity? I'm confuddlejazzombobbled again.

It takes many forms and functions in the Christian faith, but the duality of Christ's nature was not something I could accept. It is particularly relevant in terms of justification/sanctification. I have never seen anyone justify this belief from reason, only from scripture (which I can accept). So it was both my skepticism in the message and the messengers that finally caused me to revoke my declaration of faith. ...the tattoo doesn't come off quite as easily Ain't that ironic.

Peace,
-sgttomas

[sgttomas]

I'm not sure what you're asking, so I'll try and answer as best I can. It seems to me that you are wondering if faith in Christ is a work, and if it is, how does one keep from adding it to works righteousness, or the Law. I'm not sure how one comes to this question given the it's goes against all that Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, John (well you get the idea) taught.

I'm a skeptic

There is now work of righteousness that one can do to attain salvation. Is faith a work, is this how you see it? I would have to say that faith is not a work, though faith in Christ, if it is genuine will lead to works. But these works are not works of our own in an attempt to secure anything, nor are they an attempt to preserve our salvation. Rather these works that true faith produces have been ordained from the foundation of the world (Eph. 2:9-10). As far as works righteousness goes, there is only one work that man can do to be doing the works of God, believing on His Son whom He sent (Jn. 6:29). Anything else is vain.

I hear ya. If you're in you're in if you're out you're out and if you're out and you come in it is because God chose you, and if your're in and you go out it's because you rejected God. It's all straighforward and it isn't the logic that I have a hard time with, it's the premise: "there is only one work that man can do to be doing the works of God, believing on His Son whom He sent". For those who endure in this faith it is attributed to them as righteousness.....but others think it's just unnecessary. And that was how I came to see it. So in that sense it is a work of the "bad" kind (that doesn't "work" to obtain righteousness) in my eyes. And from your perspective it is because I have "bad eyes"

So it isn't as though I am denying what you are saying has merit, or that it is inconsistent within itself. It's just that I don't buy it. As far as your explanation of Christian faith goes, I think it's clear and consistent. Thanks for posting that. I have a lot of respect for people who are consistent in their faith in this manner.

Remember, the gift of salvation is a free gift. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us without reference to merit. If it was given to us as a result of works we did, then it's not by grace that we receive salvation, nor is it free. But Paul tells us it is a free gift, so there is no reference to merit. Indeed, there is no one in the world that does merit God's free gift of salvation, for all have sinned. Faith is apart from the Law. Abraham was saved by faith, but that faith wasn't proven in any work until years when he was asked by God to offer his only son Isaac up for an offering to Him. Abraham's faith was proven in the act of obedience to God's will, trusting that God somehow would still fulfill the promise He made to Abraham through Isaac. His response was, "God will provide." Simple faith, proven through his work of faith. His faith was not secured, however, because of his work, it only proved his faith. Thus it can be said, and is, that "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness" years before his work proved that faith.

So what I don't get is why this faith got harder. I can do this faith that Abraham exhibited (I mean, in a pathetically weak kind of way I can) but I can't do the faith that Paul requires: Rom 10:17 (NIV) Faith comes by hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. In my mind, this has added something else onto faith. But in the orthodox Christian understanding it has simply revealed more clearly the means of salvation - that is, Abraham was saved "in Christ" as the firstfruits, but did not consciously know his saviour the way that we can. So in that sense it isn't a burden, but a gift from God, revealing Himself and His plan of salvation. Again, consistent within the Christian doctrine this is all good.

True Christianity is the only 'religion' that offers this claim of imputed righteousness outside of works. Even Catholicism cannot claim this because they add several works of righteousness to faith (namely the Sacraments).

Heh, really showing your "Lutheran" colours there!!

Islam relies heavily on works of righteousness in it's practice, and then leaves it up to chance with the hope that you did enough good to make it into Paradise. Most of the Eastern religions rely solely on the hope that you've done enough 'good' things to warrant entrance into some kind of blissful afterlife. They are all based on works righteousness, and one hopes that he is 'good enough' to get in.

Heh, good thing I'm not making caricatures of Christianity that would fall so flimsily! "True" Islam is also different than this characterization, but maybe we can get into that subject another time. If you asked me what I had to do to get into heaven, I would say, "repent, and only by God's Grace will I be saved". That's my faith. So "Grace through Faith" has a lot of applications. If it weren't so, I doubt I would even know what a Calvinist or an Arminian was!

Christianity, in it's truest, purest form relies only on the work of Christ and faith in that work. There is no 'I must be good enough to get in' mentality to salvation, because you can't be good enough to get into Heaven. There is no exception, one must come to the Father through the Son, and that is only by Grace through Faith.

Knowledge and assent of the fact of the crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection is not enough. One would think that acknowledging the fact of the resurrection would surely be included in salvation, but not really. Simple acknowledgment of the fact of the matter does not equal faith. True faith involves confession and repentance. Confession is the translation of the Greek work which means 'to say the same.' If we are truly confessing Christ and our sin, then we are saying the same thing about our sin and Christ that God is saying about him.

I need you to clarify something, because I don't think that you meant to imply this....

...surely you don't mean to say that faith can come without such knowledge? This is the crucial issue of "those who haven't heard", or similarly, "those who haven't heard it correctly".

We are saying that we have sinned, we have transgressed His law, we have rebelled against Him. We are saying that Jesus is the Son of God, that he was without sin, that his death paid the price of my sin, that he was buried, and rose on the third day all according to Scripture. We are saying that Jesus is the only way to salvation, and thus to the Father and Heaven/Paradise. Repentance means the the absolute 180 degree turn away from sin and our old life, that we turn from the wicked, unrighteous, rebellion and disobedience. that we turn instead to God, that we will walk in His ways and follow His will and not our own, that we will live as slaves of righteousness and not slaves to unrighteousness. Repentance may include sorrow, once we understand the fullness of that Grace that is shown to us because it should grieve us that we've sinned against God and owe a debt we cannot pay. Faith requires so much more than simple knowledge of the fact. Even the demons believe in God and they tremble. True faith, true confession and repentance will make us want to do good works, works that have already been ordained for us to walk it. Works then being the fruit of our faith, and not the basis of it.

If you take out the Jesus part, I would agree completely with what you said here. As it stands, I think this is a very clear and concise description of the Christian meaning of faith.

The topic of predestined wrath or salvation is outside the scope of this discussion. Let it be sufficient to say that unless God chose us, we would not be save. Rejection of God is always the basis of wrath, and man will always reject God apart from grace. We'll leave the furthering discussion of that topic for another thread.

Oh goody! I appreciate the time and effort you took to compose this. You bring your 'A' game!!

Peace,
-sgttomas

[Diaconeo]

Hey Tomas, thanks for post and the discussion. It's always a pleasure to talk about my biblical beliefs.

If you're in you're in if you're out you're out and if you're out and you come in it is because God chose you, and if you're in and you go out it's because you rejected God.

I'd like to clarify here, everyone is out from birth. Granted some believe that if you part of the elect, then you're in from birth, but I believe this does not sync with what the Scriptures say. One must repent and confess of themselves. Even the elect have to confess and repent of their sin (notice this is singular). Without repentance and confession there is no faith and thus no salvation. There are differing schools of thought as to preservation of the saints, whether one can fall from Grace once saved or if you are secure in your salvation forever. Some hold to perseverance of the saint believing it's up to the believer to continue to secure that salvation, while others hold to preservation and believe that the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our salvation. I'm of the latter school, once you're saved there is nothing that can take you out of Christ's hands, not even yourself. (Rom. 8:32-33) ((Do I see another thread here?))

it isn't the logic that I have a hard time with, it's the premise: "there is only one work that man can do to be doing the works of God, believing on His Son whom He sent". For those who endure in this faith it is attributed to them as righteousness.....but others think it's just unnecessary. And that was how I came to see it. So in that sense it is a work of the "bad" kind (that doesn't "work" to obtain righteousness) in my eyes. And from your perspective it is because I have "bad eyes" ... So what I don't get is why this faith got harder.

Is it enduring in Faith that you feel is unnecessary or enduring in Faith in Christ. I believe you mean the latter so I'll respond that way. The question is this, How is anyone saved, both those before and after the Cross? The answer is simple, through Faith. The New Testament writers and Christ make is clear that it is by Faith in Jesus that saves. So are they saying something different? Not really, not any more different than Abraham being saved by his faith, or those who followed the Law was saved by faith. So what is the difference, because it's not in the person in which they placed their faith, rather in the the understanding of the work of salvation at the time they were saved. All men across all time have always been saved by placing their faith in God. From Adam to Moses it was by believing in the promise of a redeemer to come. The first promise of this in in Gen. 3:15 where we have the promise of a 'seed' crushing Satan's head. Again to Abraham the promise of a 'seed' was given, and Paul relates this seed to Christ. (Gal. 3:16) The see that would be the salvation of both the Jew and the Gentile is Jesus. From Adam to Moses, faith was placed in God according to the promise of a redeemer (even Job placed his faith in that). From the Law to the Cross, the Jews placed their faith in a coming Messiah. From the Cross on, all men place their faith in God according to the fulfillment of the promise from Adam to Malachi. Paul even teaches that the Jews had the Law as a schoolmaster that should have lead them to Christ, but they rejected him and so God is dealing with Israel through discipline and currently working through the church. Man is saved by the faith according to the revelation that God has given them. Today we have a greater revelation than Adam, Abraham and Moses had, but their Faith was counted as righteousness, thus they have the Righteousness of Christ imputed to them because of it.

I don't think Faith became harder. As I see it, faith actually became easier. Adam had the most rudimentary understand of God's promise. He didn't even know what this promise was going to look like, only that sometime in the future someone will crush the serpent's head. Abraham didn't understand how God's promise would work out, and heir of his would one cay die on a cross to save man from their sin. But the faith they had was sufficient, and to my thinking, it was a bigger step of faith than ours is. We have the fulfillment of the promise of a redeemer, and the proof of a soon and coming King. We have a more revealed understanding of the promises that were made to Adam, Abraham and Moses and to the nation of Israel through the years. It's easier for us to believe, not harder. Nothing was added to faith, it's still trust in the promises of God, it's just that we have a clearer understanding of those promises. Abraham believed God and for that he received Christ's imputed Righteousness. Job believe God and he also received Christ's imputed righteousness. It's still very simple, Believe God.

Heh, really showing your "Lutheran" colours there!!

I'm not 'Lutheran'. I am a protestant, though, so the idea of adding anything to the simple gift of God's Grace (the sacraments) is an abomination to me. But you are showing your English colours. LOL

Heh, good thing I'm not making caricatures of Christianity that would fall so flimsily! "True" Islam is also different than this characterization, but maybe we can get into that subject another time. If you asked me what I had to do to get into heaven, I would say, "repent, and only by God's Grace will I be saved". That's my faith. So "Grace through Faith" has a lot of applications. If it weren't so, I doubt I would even know what a Calvinist or an Arminian was!

I apologize for my general statement of Islam. My statement was based on many discussions with Muslims on their understanding of Allah's grace.The would agree that it is by Allah's grace, but the understand of that grace is different than how I understand God's grace. Their argument was that it's all based on whether you did enough good as a Muslim, if you adhered to the 5 pillars. Basically, they couldn't know if they would be in Paradise when they died, they could only hope that they would go there based on their 'good' life. If you believe other than this, I would say you are a unique Muslim, and I think is partially based off of your 'Christian experience.' It's the same basic principle between a Calvinist and and Arminian, they both believe that they cannot lose their salvation, but why and how they believe that are two different things. Calvinists would argue that it is an absolute impossibility for anyone to lose their salvation, while the Arminian would argue that it's an absolute impossibility for him to lose his salvation. They seem to be saying the same thing, but the really aren't. I'm not saying that we are saying two different things, but if we aren't then I believe you have a differing view of grace than many other Muslims do, from my experience anyway.

...surely you don't mean to say that faith can come without such knowledge? This is the crucial issue of "those who haven't heard", or similarly, "those who haven't heard it correctly".

Maybe I wasn't clear, or perhaps you misread so let me be very clear. You must have knowledge of the Gospel, but that knowledge in and of itself does not secure your salvation. One is not save simply because he believes in God, or believes there is One God. Paul says that, "the demons also believe and temble." (Jm. 2:19) That knowledge must be accompanied by faith, confession and repentance.

If you take out the Jesus part, I would agree completely with what you said here. As it stands, I think this is a very clear and concise description of the Christian meaning of faith.

Well, that's what makes me a Christian, my faith in Christ. LOL

I'd be interested in what you believe by "repent, and only by God's Grace will I be saved."

Matthew

[sgttomas]

I'm of the latter school, once you're saved there is nothing that can take you out of Christ's hands, not even yourself. (Rom. 8:32-33) ((Do I see another thread here?))

Well...personally I have a lot of vested interest in this subject, but nothing I can think of being relevant to you given your position. It would actually be unfair to me, because I would have to defend my perception of reality against your characterization of my reality. There is absolutely no common ground there, so I'll just spare us both the angst and politely say, "maybe, but I won't participate".

I don't think Faith became harder. As I see it, faith actually became easier. Adam had the most rudimentary understand of God's promise. He didn't even know what this promise was going to look like, only that sometime in the future someone will crush the serpent's head. Abraham didn't understand how God's promise would work out, and heir of his would one cay die on a cross to save man from their sin. But the faith they had was sufficient, and to my thinking, it was a bigger step of faith than ours is. We have the fulfillment of the promise of a redeemer, and the proof of a soon and coming King. We have a more revealed understanding of the promises that were made to Adam, Abraham and Moses and to the nation of Israel through the years. It's easier for us to believe, not harder. Nothing was added to faith, it's still trust in the promises of God, it's just that we have a clearer understanding of those promises. Abraham believed God and for that he received Christ's imputed Righteousness. Job believe God and he also received Christ's imputed righteousness. It's still very simple, Believe God.

It is true, how you said it is the "in Christ" part that I don't accept about faith. The reason is that I can't understand the idea of someone being both man and God. I understand that this notion is necessary for the imputation of righteousness to be legitimate. And that's what I mean about faith becoming harder. I understand God, as much as I can at the moment. I am conscious of Him - as much as I remember to be. I know of the Christ, his character, and what he was said to have done. I aspire to be more Christ-like in my life. I get all of that. I don't get having to believe "in the cross" in order to be saved. While the act itself may have been necessary (I will grant for argument's sake) I can't find any justification for requiring this notion to be believed in, in order for one to "believe God" and for one's faith to be credited as righteousness (in Christ). ...other than that the bible says so. So that's why I can't really dispute the notion with you, because I know how you justify it and I don't have any notions of moving you from that firm ground. I only mention it because I wanted to identify where the discrepancy lies in our understanding of faith, such that I see it as a burden and you as a lightened load!

I'm not 'Lutheran'. I am a protestant, though, so the idea of adding anything to the simple gift of God's Grace (the sacraments) is an abomination to me. But you are showing your English colours. LOL

Nor am I English, but I did live there for a couple years.

(I get my "peculiar" spelling from the Canadian school system)

I apologize for my general statement of Islam. My statement was based on many discussions with Muslims on their understanding of Allah's grace.The would agree that it is by Allah's grace, but the understand of that grace is different than how I understand God's grace. Their argument was that it's all based on whether you did enough good as a Muslim, if you adhered to the 5 pillars. Basically, they couldn't know if they would be in Paradise when they died, they could only hope that they would go there based on their 'good' life.

No worries. I knew you were coming from a place with good intentions, and I am also very familiar with the views you expressed here. No doubt they are prevalent.

It's the same basic principle between a Calvinist and and Arminian, they both believe that they cannot lose their salvation, but why and how they believe that are two different things. Calvinists would argue that it is an absolute impossibility for anyone to lose their salvation, while the Arminian would argue that it's an absolute impossibility for him to lose his salvation. They seem to be saying the same thing, but the really aren't.

Heh, yeah pretty much. If I think differently from others...it's because I think differently from others At some point a person just acknowledges that fact and then gets on with their life!! lol

Maybe I wasn't clear, or perhaps you misread so let me be very clear. You must have knowledge of the Gospel, but that knowledge in and of itself does not secure your salvation. One is not save simply because he believes in God, or believes there is One God. Paul says that, "the demons also believe and temble." (Jm. 2:19) That knowledge must be accompanied by faith, confession and repentance.

Ah, yes well that's what I thought you meant.

I'd be interested in what you believe by "repent, and only by God's Grace will I be saved."

I can't do anything to earn heaven. But I know the characteristics of righteousness. Between that and who I am, I need God. For that, I repent, and ask His mercy and forgiveness. Otherwise, I have plenty of sin to account for and God is just and knows all. I believe in the resurrection and the Day of Judgment. So to be saved from the punishment I justly deserve, I need God to intervene, for whatever reason He chooses. And I believe that we have been told that anyone who believes in God and does righteous deeds will be counted as the "winners" on the day of judgment (those granted paradise), who are freed from the punishment they deserve on account of their faith being credited as righteousness. And I believe that we have been told that no one who is arrogant will receive God's Grace, and repentance is the enemy of arrogance. And I am dependent upon God for all things, while He is free of need. And God is best of deciders.

As for the aqeedah (creed) of Islam (5 pillars and some other stuff) - that isn't required for salvation any more than it was required for Abraham to consciously acknowledge such as his creed. But "Islam" - surrendering one's self unto God (becoming a slave of righteousness) - has a certain character, and that character is expressed through the creed. But the creed is not the character, and it is the character that God judges (our intentions, not our actions). So I ask God to purify my character, and He can work out my creed when I meet Him. And He is the Beneficient, The Merciful.

Creed is only necessary for properly expressing the truth. Even then it can be the same creed but FAIL to properly express truth to one person, while it succeeds with another - not because of deficiencies in the message or the person, but just because words have baggage. And that's why God judges our intentions.

Peace,
-sgttomas