KR -- what do you like so much about Galatians?

[tinythinker]

What does it say to you?

[Metacrock]

What does it say to you?

while you wait for her to see this I'll answer it. Galatians is like the Christian manifesto. It's like the manifesto of the liberation theology Christians. It says first of all that if you aren't preaching the true Jesus you know form Paul, who had been exposed to "the boys" (J.C. and the boys) then you are not with it. It defines that "true Gospel" as containing two things"

(1) Grace

(2) equality

Grace is most important because it frees us form legalism, the knit picky policing of others faith and the keeping of the letter rather then the spirit of the law. It says God loves you and you don't to measure up first because he loves you, he loves you as you are. We are not saved by our own efforts but by God's unmerited favor.

the upshot of his is equality, because we are all saved by God's grace, we are all sinners, no one is better than anyone else, we are loved equally by God that gives us all the great equality because we are not meritorious so it doesn't matter if we have superiority over another, or another over us real or imagined (not by sex, race, or ability) we are all equally loved and equally saved by God's grace, and by Christ's redeeming work not our own.

In Galations (3:16) we have the famous phrase "Neither Jew nor Greek, (race) Slave nor free (social class) Male nor female (gender) in Christ Jesus. All are equal. To back that up we find the story where Peter was refraining to eat with gentiles because the spies form Jame's church were around and Pete did not want to be seen violating the law. Paul puts him down for this, saying that's the old way, the law and keeping back from people because they are not the right race.

[KR Wordgazer]

Metacrock makes some good points. But my real love for Galatians comes from the impact it had on me as I was working my way out of a spiritually abusive, fundamentalist/charismatic group which I belonged to for years,

What Galatians is to me is a call out of legalism and into grace. The group I was in was all about rules, rules rules. I remember how, little by little, one at a time, all this stuff got added to what being a Christian meant. When I first converted, it was only about believing in Christ, going to church, and not doing things that could hurt yourself or someone else. And the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" was a lovely experience.

But then-- if I was going to really follow Christ, I should set my sights on becoming a mother and a homemaker.

And then-- I needed be against abortion.

And then-- I needed to believe that public school was bad and that what I'd been taught in school was lies, particularly if it had anything to do with American history.

And then-- I needed to support certain political candidates, and not others.

And then-- good Christians didn't date, but prayed for God to send them their mate.

And then-- I needed to stop listening to "secular" music and listen only to Christian music.

And then-- Books and movies I liked were wrong and demonic.

And then-- If I really loved God, I would do everything I could to raise enough money to go to a particular Christian conference. If I didn't want to go, it meant I didn't want God's best for my life.

And on, and on, and on, and worse, and worse, and worse. No music with a rock beat-- even if it was Christian music. No movies that weren't G-rated. No G-rated movies either, if they had any mystical elements. No jewelry with any non-Christian symbolism or significance (if you bought something you thought was pretty and it turned out that it could be seen as a mandala or a Native American totem animal or something, get rid of it!) No this. No that.

I remember being astonished at how worldly I'd been being without even knowing it. What would I do without my new church, my new zealous friends, and my new Christian leaders to show me the right way to live? They'd use some Scripture or other to show why their position was right-- but though they gave lip-service to the idea that we should study it for ourselves, we were expected to come to the same conclusions, using the same Scriptures that we were given. If we didn't, there was something wrong with our motives, that was causing us to twist the word of God.

It was very gradual and very insidious. I remember my mother, in exasperation, saying to me, "You've become so rigid!" (This because she'd bought me a shirt with purple unicorns on it, that a year earlier I would have loved, but I'd turned against unicorns along with everything else I used to love.) And all I could do was wonder how I never noticed before, how totally worldly my mom was.

Sigh. Not only was I bound-up and miserable, but I must have been absolutely impossible to be around.

The Galatians were in a similar situation. It wasn't enough for them to trust Christ-- a group of teachers had come among them preaching that they also had to be circumcized and obey the whole Jewish law. These were Gentile Christians who had no understanding of what the law meant to Israel; it was just "You can't just trust God through Christ! You have to do this, do that, and do the other!" Paul, very tenderly and yet with deep concern for the new flock, shows them that "it is for freedom that Christ made us free; therefore, do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage." But while Paul is tender towards the Galatians, he is ruthless towards the false teachers who are trying to pull them into legalism -- he wishes, if they insist that non-Jews get circumcized, that they'd go all the way and castrate themselves! (Gal. 5:12) Jesus responded in a similar manner to the Pharisees, who "bound up heavy burdens to lay upon men's backs, but lifted not a finger to help carry them." Spiritual abuse is about people who want followers for themselves rather than to help people draw near to God-- as Paul put's it, they want to generate "zeal for them[selves]" rather than love for God. (Gal 4:17). This is one of the greatest scourges of our times-- legalistic, spiritually abusive religion, all about power and control rather than about grace and freedom. Fundamentalism has a zeal for God, but without knowledge. Galatians is the Scriptural response to fundamentalist spiritual abuse.

And that's why it means so much to me.

[tinythinker]

Metacrock makes some good points. But my real love for Galatians comes from the impact it had on me as I was working my way out of a spiritually abusive, fundamentalist/charismatic group which I belonged to for years,

What Galatians is to me is a call out of legalism and into grace. The group I was in was all about rules, rules rules. I remember how, little by little, one at a time, all this stuff got added to what being a Christian meant. When I first converted, it was only about believing in Christ, going to church, and not doing things that could hurt yourself or someone else. And the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" was a lovely experience.

But then-- if I was going to really follow Christ, I should set my sights on becoming a mother and a homemaker.

And then-- I needed be against abortion.

And then-- I needed to believe that public school was bad and that what I'd been taught in school was lies, particularly if it had anything to do with American history.

And then-- I needed to support certain political candidates, and not others.

And then-- good Christians didn't date, but prayed for God to send them their mate.

And then-- I needed to stop listening to "secular" music and listen only to Christian music.

And then-- Books and movies I liked were wrong and demonic.

And then-- If I really loved God, I would do everything I could to raise enough money to go to a particular Christian conference. If I didn't want to go, it meant I didn't want God's best for my life.

And on, and on, and on, and worse, and worse, and worse. No music with a rock beat-- even if it was Christian music. No movies that weren't G-rated. No G-rated movies either, if they had any mystical elements. No jewelry with any non-Christian symbolism or significance (if you bought something you thought was pretty and it turned out that it could be seen as a mandala or a Native American totem animal or something, get rid of it!) No this. No that.

I remember being astonished at how worldly I'd been being without even knowing it. What would I do without my new church, my new zealous friends, and my new Christian leaders to show me the right way to live? They'd use some Scripture or other to show why their position was right-- but though they gave lip-service to the idea that we should study it for ourselves, we were expected to come to the same conclusions, using the same Scriptures that we were given. If we didn't, there was something wrong with our motives, that was causing us to twist the word of God.

It was very gradual and very insidious. I remember my mother, in exasperation, saying to me, "You've become so rigid!" (This because she'd bought me a shirt with purple unicorns on it, that a year earlier I would have loved, but I'd turned against unicorns along with everything else I used to love.) And all I could do was wonder how I never noticed before, how totally worldly my mom was.

Sigh. Not only was I bound-up and miserable, but I must have been absolutely impossible to be around.

The Galatians were in a similar situation. It wasn't enough for them to trust Christ-- a group of teachers had come among them preaching that they also had to be circumcized and obey the whole Jewish law. These were Gentile Christians who had no understanding of what the law meant to Israel; it was just "You can't just trust God through Christ! You have to do this, do that, and do the other!" Paul, very tenderly and yet with deep concern for the new flock, shows them that "it is for freedom that Christ made us free; therefore, do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage." But while Paul is tender towards the Galatians, he is ruthless towards the false teachers who are trying to pull them into legalism -- he wishes, if they insist that non-Jews get circumcized, that they'd go all the way and castrate themselves! (Gal. 5:12) Jesus responded in a similar manner to the Pharisees, who "bound up heavy burdens to lay upon men's backs, but lifted not a finger to help carry them." Spiritual abuse is about people who want followers for themselves rather than to help people draw near to God-- as Paul put's it, they want to generate "zeal for them[selves]" rather than love for God. (Gal 4:17). This is one of the greatest scourges of our times-- legalistic, spiritually abusive religion, all about power and control rather than about grace and freedom. Fundamentalism has a zeal for God, but without knowledge. Galatians is the Scriptural response to fundamentalist spiritual abuse.

And that's why it means so much to me.

Thanks for sharing KR. The churches I grew up in weren't quite that bad, but they did have similar overtones. I recall feeling guilty when I first wanted to read The Lord of the Rings in middle school. Nothing showed the glory of God, everything was fallen. That' one reason I like how some older churches (RCC, Anglican, etc) see things -- as reflecting some aspect of God. Even other religions are seen as reflecting the truth, although some may say "Buddhists gets 75% complete, Hindus get it 85% complete, etc." Of course, I don't know how they can say Christianity gets it 100% complete if we take mystery seriously, but the general idea is that Christianity has the "fullness of truth". I know this would still be somewhat insulting to non-Christians, but it is so much better than the idea in the churches of my youth that said they were all false paths set out like snares by the Devil. Even so I think the "fullness of truth" argument may also think too small or narrow of God. Maybe we should ask "Does it get enough?" If we look at the story of Jesus and the revelation of the incarnation as insight into God's relationship to humanity beyond their own narrative details, it seems bizarre to me to think grace and redemption is limited to the historical account of the Gospel. The "good news" seems like it is beyond any particular culture or time period.

[Metacrock]

Metacrock makes some good points. But my real love for Galatians comes from the impact it had on me as I was working my way out of a spiritually abusive, fundamentalist/charismatic group which I belonged to for years,

What Galatians is to me is a call out of legalism and into grace. The group I was in was all about rules, rules rules. I remember how, little by little, one at a time, all this stuff got added to what being a Christian meant. When I first converted, it was only about believing in Christ, going to church, and not doing things that could hurt yourself or someone else. And the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" was a lovely experience.

But then-- if I was going to really follow Christ, I should set my sights on becoming a mother and a homemaker.

And then-- I needed be against abortion.

And then-- I needed to believe that public school was bad and that what I'd been taught in school was lies, particularly if it had anything to do with American history.

And then-- I needed to support certain political candidates, and not others.

And then-- good Christians didn't date, but prayed for God to send them their mate.

And then-- I needed to stop listening to "secular" music and listen only to Christian music.

And then-- Books and movies I liked were wrong and demonic.

And then-- If I really loved God, I would do everything I could to raise enough money to go to a particular Christian conference. If I didn't want to go, it meant I didn't want God's best for my life.

And on, and on, and on, and worse, and worse, and worse. No music with a rock beat-- even if it was Christian music. No movies that weren't G-rated. No G-rated movies either, if they had any mystical elements. No jewelry with any non-Christian symbolism or significance (if you bought something you thought was pretty and it turned out that it could be seen as a mandala or a Native American totem animal or something, get rid of it!) No this. No that.

I remember being astonished at how worldly I'd been being without even knowing it. What would I do without my new church, my new zealous friends, and my new Christian leaders to show me the right way to live? They'd use some Scripture or other to show why their position was right-- but though they gave lip-service to the idea that we should study it for ourselves, we were expected to come to the same conclusions, using the same Scriptures that we were given. If we didn't, there was something wrong with our motives, that was causing us to twist the word of God.

It was very gradual and very insidious. I remember my mother, in exasperation, saying to me, "You've become so rigid!" (This because she'd bought me a shirt with purple unicorns on it, that a year earlier I would have loved, but I'd turned against unicorns along with everything else I used to love.) And all I could do was wonder how I never noticed before, how totally worldly my mom was.

Sigh. Not only was I bound-up and miserable, but I must have been absolutely impossible to be around.

The Galatians were in a similar situation. It wasn't enough for them to trust Christ-- a group of teachers had come among them preaching that they also had to be circumcized and obey the whole Jewish law. These were Gentile Christians who had no understanding of what the law meant to Israel; it was just "You can't just trust God through Christ! You have to do this, do that, and do the other!" Paul, very tenderly and yet with deep concern for the new flock, shows them that "it is for freedom that Christ made us free; therefore, do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage." But while Paul is tender towards the Galatians, he is ruthless towards the false teachers who are trying to pull them into legalism -- he wishes, if they insist that non-Jews get circumcized, that they'd go all the way and castrate themselves! (Gal. 5:12) Jesus responded in a similar manner to the Pharisees, who "bound up heavy burdens to lay upon men's backs, but lifted not a finger to help carry them." Spiritual abuse is about people who want followers for themselves rather than to help people draw near to God-- as Paul put's it, they want to generate "zeal for them[selves]" rather than love for God. (Gal 4:17). This is one of the greatest scourges of our times-- legalistic, spiritually abusive religion, all about power and control rather than about grace and freedom. Fundamentalism has a zeal for God, but without knowledge. Galatians is the Scriptural response to fundamentalist spiritual abuse.

And that's why it means so much to me.

yea well that's not substantially different, but I even had a similar experience of getting over a legalistic group. I was raised in the Church of Christ (the way it used to be). I became an atheist because of it. The woman who led me to the lord told me about Galatians immediately and prepared me to watch out for legalism even before I could understand what she was talking about. Before that legalism just seemed like the normal way to function as a Christian, you know?

[Metacrock]

It was very gradual and very insidious. I remember my mother, in exasperation, saying to me, "You've become so rigid!" (This because she'd bought me a shirt with purple unicorns on it, that a year earlier I would have loved, but I'd turned against unicorns along with everything else I used to love.) And all I could do was wonder how I never noticed before, how totally worldly my mom was.

I have an even worse one than that. this wasn't even in the Church of Christ but the Charismatics. From listening to televangelists. I through away a huge stack of books. They were great books, they were even some that now I would see as Christian. And they included William Blake and Light in August by William Faulkner and all sorts of great literature. I did it as a renunciation of intellectualism to prove to myself that that stuff was unimportant compared to God.

Now I wish I thought of allowing those books to help enrich my understanding of God. O well live and learn. My brother has more great books than either of us has ever read. It was quite a job saving them when we lost the house.
they also got flooded so we lose quite a few in the flood at the apartment. But we still have a lot.

To me books on a par with dogs or people, they are like children, they are like jewels. I can't stand to see a book damaged. So those are hard memories to think of throwing those away and that was total stupidity. I didn't even really feel God was telling me to do it. I was just zombified with the spirit of televangelism. That's back around 79 or 80, in my year I guess of "being saved."

[sgttomas]

What's the difference between law and legalism? Everyone follows a law of some fashion. Everyone believes that law is necessary in some manner. So law is necessary, but in what way?

Peace,
-sgttomas

[Metacrock]

What's the difference between law and legalism? Everyone follows a law of some fashion. Everyone believes that law is necessary in some manner. So law is necessary, but in what way?

Peace,
-sgttomas

legalism is the letter, grace is the spirit. You can be so exacting and literal that you completely snuff out the purpose for which the law was created. Or you can break the letter of the law to be more faithful to the spirit of the law.

example: chruch of Christ believed that using instruments of music was wrong because a bible says "singing and making a melody in your heart, with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs." So they decided it was wrong to use a piano or guitar or any other instrument because you should "make the melody in your heart."

that's legalistic, it's literalistic. Now if someone couldn't sing without an instrument and quite singing altogether and felt bad about it so wasn't "making a melody in the heart" that's a case where the law is actually self defeating. Its' not making one more spiritual but less so. If you get that person to a service where they have a piano and he's happy to sin and has melody in his heart, he's actually breaking what is thought to be the letter but is upholding the spirit.

He's actually not breaking the letter of the law becuase it never says "don't use an instrument." But that's par for the course with legalism it usually builds a fence around the law.

[sgttomas]

...what about the role of law? How do we know the law and obey the law?

[Metacrock]

...what about the role of law? How do we know the law and obey the law?

we don't live under the law of Moses. that doesn't mean there's not natural moral law. but as far as laws of ritual purity, that's part of what grace is about, we don't mess with it.