I think some of you would find this interesting. http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/112
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About this Talk
It's a classic problem in theology: How can the existence of evil be reconciled with a God who is supposed to be all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful? Many Christian thinkers have attempted answers to this question. In the days following the thousands of personal tragedies recorded during the South Asian tsunami of 2004, Tom Honey pondered those answers and found them wanting. Instead, he penned his own, personal, and sometimes dramatic response to the tsunami. This is a courageous talk for a Church of England vicar to have given. It concludes that certain traditional concepts of God just won't do ... and calls for believers and nonbelievers alike to dig deeper in their quest for truth.
About Rev. Tom Honey
The Canon Pastor of Exeter Cathedral, in the UK, is unafraid to take on some of religion's tougher... Read full bio »
Rev. Honey talk at TED
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QuantumTroll
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Re: Rev. Honey talk at TED
what is wrong with my soeteriological drama concept? That gives a perfectly logical reason why God must allow pain and evil to exist without any gymnastics about pain building character.
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Re: Rev. Honey talk at TED
I haven't seen your soteriological drama concept, so I can't comment on it.
What did you think of what the Pastor said?
What did you think of what the Pastor said?
Re: Rev. Honey talk at TED
Hi.
and
I believe its not just about digging deeper in our quest for truth? Its about ministers who call themselves ministers of God, teaching the truth about God and not their own pet theories about God. Its also about people believing what they read in the Scriptures rather than trying to read into Scriptures what is not there. God, if we believe He exists, and if we believe His Word, teaches us that He is not the author of sin, sickness, death and or destruction, of any kind in this age. He also teaches us not only who He is, what He looks like, what He has done for man and what He will do for man throughout eternity. God has never stopped working for the good of His creation and for the good of man throughout eternity past and He continues to work to this very day, "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (John 5:17).
At the risk of being branded because of my answeres to questions such as this one, I will proceed non the less. God is not the author of sin, sickness, nor confusion or destruction. "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:33). I will provide Scriptures to back up what I say for people to make up their own minds. God knows His Plan For Man from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by all free moral agents throughout the entire world.
It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. Whether men obey God or the law of the land in which they live is up to them. Regarding the tsunami which destroyed entire towns and many people. If people are forced to live, because of poverty and bad goverance of a country, or even choose to live in low lying tidal flood plains, this has nothing to do with God and it is not His will for them to die because of a quake far out to sea! God wills all men to "choose life," and also be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).
God does not know, or even want to know the personal individual choices free moral agents make each and every waking moment of their day. God searches the hearts of men. If a mans heart is right with God He often winks at small indescressions (Acts 17:30), "And the times of this ignorance God winked at (or overlooked); but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to REPENT" (Acts 17:30).
Several times in Scripture God Himself said of certain events that they DID NOT COME INTO HIS MIND (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).
God DID NOT KNOW BEFOREHAND that men would become so wicked. It repented Him that He had made man! It grieved Him at His heart! (Gen. 6:5-7), that they would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked He went there Himself to see if it was true according to the report of it which was given to Him (Gen. 18:21). He said, "If I find fifty righteous within the city in verse 26. Why make this statement if He already knew? (Gen. 18:26-32). God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signes to make Israel believe Him (Ex.4:1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Deut. 8:2, 16). Goid did not know that Israel would backslide as far as it did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).
God SEARCHES THE HEARTS to find whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS deep things (Job. 12:22); He tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chr. 28:9; Rom.8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23), proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).
God goes Himself, or He sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other organization would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions can be taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in all these passages (Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).
The 6,468 commands in the Bible regulating man as to his part in the eternal plan of God, and setting forth his responsibility to God and man, the 1,260 promises and blessings, rewards or loss of rewards, the hundreds, the hundreds of warnings, curses, blessings and dealings of God on the basis of conformity to His will. the 1,522 "IF'S" and the many hundreds of conditional requirements of God throughout Scripture are sufficient proof that God does not cause all acts and events by His own decrees, and are sufficient proof that He changes His own dealings with men as they conform or refuse to conform to His will. Such facts and many others make it clear that God does not know from all eternity what any one man will do, much less what different types and dispositions of men will do under various circumstances that are not yet present to deal with.
There is not one statement of Scripture in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all the vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future. God's plan will not fail and it is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free moral actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).
."It's a classic problem in theology: How can the existence of evil be reconciled with a God who is supposed to be all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful? Many Christian thinkers have attempted answers to this question. In the days following the thousands of personal tragedies recorded during the South Asian tsunami of 2004"
and
."It concludes that certain traditional concepts of God just won't do ... and calls for believers and nonbelievers alike to dig deeper in their quest for truth"
I believe its not just about digging deeper in our quest for truth? Its about ministers who call themselves ministers of God, teaching the truth about God and not their own pet theories about God. Its also about people believing what they read in the Scriptures rather than trying to read into Scriptures what is not there. God, if we believe He exists, and if we believe His Word, teaches us that He is not the author of sin, sickness, death and or destruction, of any kind in this age. He also teaches us not only who He is, what He looks like, what He has done for man and what He will do for man throughout eternity. God has never stopped working for the good of His creation and for the good of man throughout eternity past and He continues to work to this very day, "But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work" (John 5:17).
At the risk of being branded because of my answeres to questions such as this one, I will proceed non the less. God is not the author of sin, sickness, nor confusion or destruction. "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" (1 Cor. 14:33). I will provide Scriptures to back up what I say for people to make up their own minds. God knows His Plan For Man from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by all free moral agents throughout the entire world.
It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. Whether men obey God or the law of the land in which they live is up to them. Regarding the tsunami which destroyed entire towns and many people. If people are forced to live, because of poverty and bad goverance of a country, or even choose to live in low lying tidal flood plains, this has nothing to do with God and it is not His will for them to die because of a quake far out to sea! God wills all men to "choose life," and also be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).
God does not know, or even want to know the personal individual choices free moral agents make each and every waking moment of their day. God searches the hearts of men. If a mans heart is right with God He often winks at small indescressions (Acts 17:30), "And the times of this ignorance God winked at (or overlooked); but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to REPENT" (Acts 17:30).
Several times in Scripture God Himself said of certain events that they DID NOT COME INTO HIS MIND (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).
God DID NOT KNOW BEFOREHAND that men would become so wicked. It repented Him that He had made man! It grieved Him at His heart! (Gen. 6:5-7), that they would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked He went there Himself to see if it was true according to the report of it which was given to Him (Gen. 18:21). He said, "If I find fifty righteous within the city in verse 26. Why make this statement if He already knew? (Gen. 18:26-32). God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signes to make Israel believe Him (Ex.4:1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Deut. 8:2, 16). Goid did not know that Israel would backslide as far as it did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).
God SEARCHES THE HEARTS to find whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He DISCOVERS deep things (Job. 12:22); He tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chr. 28:9; Rom.8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23), proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).
God goes Himself, or He sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other organization would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions can be taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in all these passages (Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).
The 6,468 commands in the Bible regulating man as to his part in the eternal plan of God, and setting forth his responsibility to God and man, the 1,260 promises and blessings, rewards or loss of rewards, the hundreds, the hundreds of warnings, curses, blessings and dealings of God on the basis of conformity to His will. the 1,522 "IF'S" and the many hundreds of conditional requirements of God throughout Scripture are sufficient proof that God does not cause all acts and events by His own decrees, and are sufficient proof that He changes His own dealings with men as they conform or refuse to conform to His will. Such facts and many others make it clear that God does not know from all eternity what any one man will do, much less what different types and dispositions of men will do under various circumstances that are not yet present to deal with.
There is not one statement of Scripture in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all the vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future. God's plan will not fail and it is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free moral actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who wilfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).
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QuantumTroll
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Re: Rev. Honey talk at TED
Thanks for your reply!
It strikes me that you must carry the Bible very close to your heart for you to be able to get scriptural quotes to back up everything you say so easily
Your comment "about ministers who call themselves ministers of God, teaching the truth about God and not their own pet theories about God" is something I thought about as well, when I saw the clip. Is he breaking his church's doctrine? What does his congregation think about hearing these things. It seemed to me that he came to these conclusions only after extensive deliberation, and it wasn't easy for him to accept that he thought the way he did.
I find it curious that you spent a long time writing about how it's the individual's choice whether or not to be saved, but that's a separate issue from the fact that God's creation killed puppies, kittens, newborns, their parents, and probably a murderer or two in one fell swoop right around Jesus' birthday. How does making a killer planet conform to your Biblical view of God? Surely the planet isn't free to choose, but spins along the way God set it spinning in the beginning?
It strikes me that you must carry the Bible very close to your heart for you to be able to get scriptural quotes to back up everything you say so easily
Your comment "about ministers who call themselves ministers of God, teaching the truth about God and not their own pet theories about God" is something I thought about as well, when I saw the clip. Is he breaking his church's doctrine? What does his congregation think about hearing these things. It seemed to me that he came to these conclusions only after extensive deliberation, and it wasn't easy for him to accept that he thought the way he did.
Isn't that what Rev. Honey kind of was saying? God didn't kill these people, a big wave killed these people. God has nothing to do with waves and the individual actions of men. Of course, the issue is that God made a universe with a planet and people. He loves the people, but the planet He made often kills people. So God made a people-killer. I think that's what was so difficult for Rev. Honey, and caused him to accept more of a "watchmaker God".It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. Whether men obey God or the law of the land in which they live is up to them. Regarding the tsunami which destroyed entire towns and many people. If people are forced to live, because of poverty and bad goverance of a country, or even choose to live in low lying tidal flood plains, this has nothing to do with God and it is not His will for them to die because of a quake far out to sea! God wills all men to "choose life," and also be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).
I find it curious that you spent a long time writing about how it's the individual's choice whether or not to be saved, but that's a separate issue from the fact that God's creation killed puppies, kittens, newborns, their parents, and probably a murderer or two in one fell swoop right around Jesus' birthday. How does making a killer planet conform to your Biblical view of God? Surely the planet isn't free to choose, but spins along the way God set it spinning in the beginning?
Re: Rev. Honey talk at TED
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief