How to read the bible

Discuss either theological doctrines, ideas about God, or Biblical criticism. I don't want any debates about creation vs evolution.

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socrates
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by socrates » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:35 am

[quote="sgttomas]All of the arguments put forth for the Quran being the literal speech of ALLAH can be found in the Quran. I invite you to read a translation as you can scarcely go ten verses without encountering one. To summarize a few:
-sgtt[/quote]

Ah, this is interesting. We have arrived at the point where we can begin to examine how one decides on this most important of questions. The Qur'an, is it genuinely the "literal speech of Allah", or is this something which is merely claimed?

You suggest that this might be established by the use of valid arguments, and that these arguments can be discovered within the text of the Qur'an itself. In fact, you were kind enough to give me a short taster of some of them. In which case, it might be best to begin a new thread so that we might focus on this question carefully and invite others to join us. If you are agreed, I shall start one for us.
"An honest man is always a child."

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KR Wordgazer
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by KR Wordgazer » Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:37 pm

sgttomas wrote:Okay, here is step one. Purify your intention to gain knowledge for the sake of ALLAH alone. Submit your self to ALLAH. Believe in Him, His Angels, His Messengers, His Books, the Day of Judgment, the Afterlife, and Divine Destiny. Then submit yourself to what the Prophet taught, completely and with all of your heart. And learn the Quran and Prophetic teachings from those who learned it from those who learned it from the Prophet. Memorize these teachings verbatim and conduct your life in accordance with these teachings until your masters give you permission to study on your own. This shall be your approach to true moral guidance. Learn what was taught, precisely and exactly as it was taught, change none of it, have no opinion of it except that it is true and submit yourself to it.

This is the first step in attaining knowledge in Islam. There is enough here just to memorize literally and apply strictly as it was taught to last you a lifetime. And if ALLAH gives you a way to further knowledge then none can bar you from it. This is how Islam has existed from inception until now. Hear and obey.

Happy submitting! :)

Peace,
-sgttomas
This seems fairly circular. We know that it's the literal word of Allah by submitting to it as the literal word of Allah. That's actually impossible, on the face of it. I can't submit to it as the literal word of Allah unless I already believe it is. And that means becoming convinced of it by evidence and reason, not just deciding to believe regardless.

As for these evidences:

1. If you doubt it is the speech of ALLAH, then reproduce a Quran like it (but you probably don't speak Arabic).

I don't think anyone could reproduce the Bible either.

2. Read of the signs in the Quran of which none other than ALLAH could have knowledge.

The Bible also contains prophecies which have been fulfilled.

3. Observe the life of the Prophet and consider if any other than a Prophet of ALLAH could have delivered this message and accomplished what he accomplished.

It troubles me that Mohammed married a nine-year-old girl. Jesus never did anything like that.

4. Understand the rationale of explaining the Oneness of ALLAH, and the calling to Islam, who but a true Prophet would tell us of this God and this religion?

The same could be said of Jesus.

5. See the signs in Nature: ALLAH there is no god but He. If you accept that, then what inconsistency is there in the vessel that delivered this knowledge?

The Bible also speaks of the signs of nature telling us of the one true God.
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by Metacrock » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:21 pm

that's good observations Kristen, it's the very same problem with the fundies and the literal bible as the word of God.
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:47 am

KR Wordgazer wrote:This seems fairly circular. We know that it's the literal word of Allah by submitting to it as the literal word of Allah. That's actually impossible, on the face of it. I can't ubmit to it as the literal word of Allah unless I already believe it is. And that means becoming convinced of it by evidence and reason, not just deciding to believe regardless.
Slow down a minute. Evaluate what I was actually telling him. He asked me how one obtains moral guidance from the Quran. The first form of guidance from it is obviously to believe in it and belief in it happens by means of how one comes to "belief". It isn't circular at all. As for the subsequent moral guidance, yes one has to submit to it. ALLAH turns hearts towards him by it as well as turning hearts away.
1. If you doubt it is the speech of ALLAH, then reproduce a Quran like it (but you probably don't speak Arabic).

I don't think anyone could reproduce the Bible either.
Actually all throughout this thread people have confirmed that the Bible is human speech. No one would dispute this, so there is no need to even evaluate what is produced like the Bible. All forms of "inspired" speech are equal to the Bible - if this were not so, we wouldn't have so many Christian sects disputing with one another over issues that were invented by those sects (I'm not just talking about points of disputation over unclear texts). It is precisely that the speech of the Quran is inimitable that I am claiming...and so, if you doubt it is the speech of ALLAH....
2. Read of the signs in the Quran of which none other than ALLAH could have knowledge.

The Bible also contains prophecies which have been fulfilled.
That's right.
3. Observe the life of the Prophet and consider if any other than a Prophet of ALLAH could have delivered this message and accomplished what he accomplished.

It troubles me that Mohammed married a nine-year-old girl. Jesus never did anything like that.
Why does it trouble you?
4. Understand the rationale of explaining the Oneness of ALLAH, and the calling to Islam, who but a true Prophet would tell us of this God and this religion?

The same could be said of Jesus.
That's right.
5. See the signs in Nature: ALLAH there is no god but He. If you accept that, then what inconsistency is there in the vessel that delivered this knowledge?

The Bible also speaks of the signs of nature telling us of the one true God.
Correct! :)

Peace,
-sgttomas
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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KR Wordgazer
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by KR Wordgazer » Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:43 pm

sgttomas wrote:
KR Wordgazer wrote:This seems fairly circular. We know that it's the literal word of Allah by submitting to it as the literal word of Allah. That's actually impossible, on the face of it. I can't ubmit to it as the literal word of Allah unless I already believe it is. And that means becoming convinced of it by evidence and reason, not just deciding to believe regardless.
Slow down a minute. Evaluate what I was actually telling him. He asked me how one obtains moral guidance from the Quran. The first form of guidance from it is obviously to believe in it and belief in it happens by means of how one comes to "belief". It isn't circular at all. As for the subsequent moral guidance, yes one has to submit to it. ALLAH turns hearts towards him by it as well as turning hearts away.
Ok, I'll accept that.
1. If you doubt it is the speech of ALLAH, then reproduce a Quran like it (but you probably don't speak Arabic).

I don't think anyone could reproduce the Bible either.
Actually all throughout this thread people have confirmed that the Bible is human speech. No one would dispute this, so there is no need to even evaluate what is produced like the Bible. All forms of "inspired" speech are equal to the Bible - if this were not so, we wouldn't have so many Christian sects disputing with one another over issues that were invented by those sects (I'm not just talking about points of disputation over unclear texts). It is precisely that the speech of the Quran is inimitable that I am claiming...and so, if you doubt it is the speech of ALLAH....
2. Read of the signs in the Quran of which none other than ALLAH could have knowledge.

The Bible also contains prophecies which have been fulfilled.
That's right.
4. Understand the rationale of explaining the Oneness of ALLAH, and the calling to Islam, who but a true Prophet would tell us of this God and this religion?

The same could be said of Jesus.
That's right.
5. See the signs in Nature: ALLAH there is no god but He. If you accept that, then what inconsistency is there in the vessel that delivered this knowledge?

The Bible also speaks of the signs of nature telling us of the one true God.
Correct! :)

Peace,
-sgttomas
First you said that the Bible is unlike the Quran. Now, in the areas which you say evidence the fact that the Quran is different from the Bible, you agree that the Bible has the same evidences. What am I supposed to make of that?

As to this:


3. Observe the life of the Prophet and consider if any other than a Prophet of ALLAH could have delivered this message and accomplished what he accomplished.

It troubles me that Mohammed married a nine-year-old girl. Jesus never did anything like that.
Why does it trouble you?
You said to examine the life of the Prophet. I figured that meant I was to look upon him as a man who lived his life according to the will of Allah. So-- was it Allah's will that he marry a little girl? And if it was-- what am I to make of Allah?

What am I to make of modern-day Muslims who use this example from the Prophet's life as an excuse to marry little girls today?
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met
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by met » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:41 pm

sgt, i think for many xians the Bible is both human speech AND YET also the very words of God!
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

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sgttomas
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:06 pm

met wrote:sgt, i think for many xians the Bible is both human speech AND YET also the very words of God!
I know, I read what you said about V-P. I said that this is nothing like what Muslims claim about the Quran, and then offered for comparison what is asserted in our dogmas.

Did you not think it was of a different nature?

-sgtt
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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sgttomas
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:13 pm

KR Wordgazer wrote:First you said that the Bible is unlike the Quran. Now, in the areas which you say evidence the fact that the Quran is different from the Bible, you agree that the Bible has the same evidences. What am I supposed to make of that?
"Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong)...And lo! there is a party of them who distort the Scripture with their tongues, that ye may think that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they say: It is from Allah, when it is not from Allah; and they speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly. It is not (possible) for any human being unto whom Allah had given the Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said unto mankind: Be slaves of me instead of Allah; but (what he said was): Be ye faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the Scripture and of your constant study thereof."
You said to examine the life of the Prophet. I figured that meant I was to look upon him as a man who lived his life according to the will of Allah. So-- was it Allah's will that he marry a little girl? And if it was-- what am I to make of Allah?
I don't know, what is your dispute? What are you alleging?
What am I to make of modern-day Muslims who use this example from the Prophet's life as an excuse to marry little girls today?
I don't know, what is it that you are alleging?

(Look, I can assume what you are getting at, but I don't want to put words into your mouth - what is it on the face of things that is wrong with marrying someone of that age? ...A marriage ceremony is repulsive? I'm thinking you are implying something else, so I'm asking you to just say what it is that is in your heart concerning the matter).

Peace,
-sgttomas
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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met
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by met » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:32 pm

sgttomas wrote:
met wrote:sgt, i think for many xians the Bible is both human speech AND YET also the very words of God!
I know, I read what you said about V-P. I said that this is nothing like what Muslims claim about the Quran, and then offered for comparison what is asserted in our dogmas.

Did you not think it was of a different nature?

-sgtt
The Word of God would be the Word of God.... wouldn't it? Either God speaks or not.
The “One” is the space of the “world” of the tick, but also the “pinch” of the lobster, or that rendezvous in person to confirm online pictures (with a new lover or an old God). This is the machinery operative...as “onto-theology."
Dr Ward Blanton

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sgttomas
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Re: How to read the bible

Post by sgttomas » Mon Jun 27, 2011 9:14 pm

met wrote:The Word of God would be the Word of God.... wouldn't it? Either God speaks or not.
Well, I'm not really sure what you are differentiating from what we covered already? Are you saying the Quran is the same as V-P? I agree that parts of the Bible are the Word of God, and I agree that parts of it are human speech. That's the contention for Muslims and the affirmation for Christians.

-sgtt
Prophet Muhammad (God send peace and blessings upon him) is reported to have said, "God says 'I am as My servant thinks I am' " ~ Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol 9 #502 (Chapter 93, "Oneness of God")

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