do me a favor please?

Discuss arguments for existence of God and faith in general. Any aspect of any orientation toward religion/spirituality, as long as it is based upon a positive open to other people attitude.

Moderator:Metacrock

User avatar
Metacrock
Posts:10046
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:03 am
Location:Dallas
Contact:
do me a favor please?

Post by Metacrock » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:54 pm

someone tells me that the links on this page aer down. I find they work for me. I need to know if anyone has trouble getting into these docs.

the first three on this page:

http://www.doxa.ws/social/Women/women_index.html

thanks
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief

James S Saint
Posts:29
Joined:Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:05 pm

Re: do me a favor please?

Post by James S Saint » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:05 pm

Women And Christianity:
Biblical Teachings on Gender Equality
I guess so.. 8-)

User avatar
Metacrock
Posts:10046
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:03 am
Location:Dallas
Contact:

Re: do me a favor please?

Post by Metacrock » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:22 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Women And Christianity:
Biblical Teachings on Gender Equality
I guess so.. 8-)
thanks man
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief

James S Saint
Posts:29
Joined:Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:05 pm

Re: do me a favor please?

Post by James S Saint » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:51 am

Speaking of that site, do you believe that women and men should have identical authority in church?
..and then, what is (in general terms) your source for such belief?

User avatar
Metacrock
Posts:10046
Joined:Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:03 am
Location:Dallas
Contact:

Re: do me a favor please?

Post by Metacrock » Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:41 am

James S Saint wrote:Speaking of that site, do you believe that women and men should have identical authority in church?
..and then, what is (in general terms) your source for such belief?
yes I don't think there's any basis for treating women like second class. I think that what is. I don't buy the rhetoric of separate but equal.

I base my views on doing better translations. There's now a grat wealth of info on the translation problems. One of the major books that got me thinking this way was called God's word to women written by a missionary around 1923 who went to China and India. Her name was Bushnell. She studied language at Northwestern, both Hebrew and Greek. Her stuff on the Hebew is not so good. I studied Greek for three years and what I examined of her work in Greek is good. Now there's a huge body of work from many different sources that takes the same view or kind of view.

check out the egalitarian board here at doxa.

my major website Doxa has a huge section on women and the bible.

http://www.doxa.ws/social/Women/women_index.html
Have Theology, Will argue: wire Metacrock
Buy My book: The Trace of God: Warrant for belief

James S Saint
Posts:29
Joined:Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:05 pm

Re: do me a favor please?

Post by James S Saint » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:23 am

Normally, I don't participate in these kinds of discussions. I find them a tad vulgar, not because I have a strong opinion one way or another, but rather because I instantly see such concern beneath where the heart and mind should be. Imagine taking the time to have a church meeting to discuss whether the women in the pews should be allowed to where tongs instead of straight panties during services.

It reminds me of a meeting of elders a few years ago that I attended as a guest. It was a fairly new facility. The young pastor had been there about a year. He called a meeting so as to request input on a possible purpose for the church. It took me a bit off guard realizing that he had been there for a year and was just then considering a purpose for the church. And he seemed quite at a loss on the subject although I could detect that he actually had a specific purpose already subconsciously brewing.

He was a very bright man, very literate, but not what I would call totally conscious. His education was clearly formed on a secular foundation, which no doubt had something to do with his complete ignorance of the inherited purpose of any church. After his introduction of his concern to the elders, some discussion was had. But then he found the moment to introduce the purpose he had already in mind.

He stumbled about a little trying to say it without saying it. He could subconsciously sense that it wasn't entirely right but he was compelled to guide the church in that chosen direction. With enough questioning of what he was really trying to say, it finally came out that what he wanted was for the white population of the town to go far away on missions and for black men to be moved into the community. When asked why, he again fumbled seemingly unable to answer the question at all.

One of the attendees was a very active woman largely in charge of the many efforts throughout the community, church related or not, to help out minorities and/or underprivileged. She finally stop his fumbling by asking, "why these specific people?". After a moment of silence, her sitting beside me, I said, "because they are black". He reluctantly acknowledged.

It appalled me that he, seeing no purpose in the church in the first place, would then direct the church toward a specific racist agenda. I couldn't help but think, "What in the hell does Jesus have to do with vulgar racist quarrels?" I didn't say it out loud (I don't think). And I didn't consider racism to be totally ignored. But where oh where did Jesus propose that his church was about leveling the races?

The man was literally talking about shifting funds that were currently allocated to the poor in his own community so as to send specific white men out of town and pay for black men to move into town. The "Black on Blonds" agenda was more than apparent, but not to his mind. He couldn't see the devil within.

To me the topic of whether money should be spent to manipulate the races into secular compliance "should have been" so far beneath anything a church would be involved in, that I was just mortified. It felt vulgar to even continue to watch. I felt a bit like I was sitting through a porn film.

But now..

This concern of whether women should teach scripture and whether they should be treated identically in every respect to males (I have to distinguish men from males) is a little bit like that racism agenda to me. It "should be" beneath the minds and hearts of Christians, but obviously is not.

On the subject itself, no two entities should be treated identically. Every entity should be treated only slightly better than whatever it individually is. A female is not merely a male in women's clothing. Nor is every female merely an identical pawn in someones chess game. Is every male identical and capable of teaching scriptures?

What are the qualifications for getting a good job done teaching scriptures?
You can't tell me. You don't know.
Being female or male is actually related.
But you do not know how it is related.

Such discussions are not merely for the "scholarly", but for a specific type of scholar, not merely a priest, but a particular type of advanced priest. Specifically a scholar focused on cause and effect. And definitely those who have absolutely no question concerning exact purpose.

All others are merely playing the secular agenda to the demise of your religion.

User avatar
KR Wordgazer
Posts:1410
Joined:Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:07 pm

Re: do me a favor please?

Post by KR Wordgazer » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:28 pm

It's easy for a man to say that talk of women's equality in the church is irrelevant. All the time I hear men in the church talking about women and what women can't do. It would be good if these men would actually start talking TO women and listening to them, rather than talking ABOUT them and listening only to each other.

It's easy when you're in the seat of privilege, to fault those who aren't, just for wanting a place at the table.

And yes, Jesus' message, and Paul's, if carried out, do result in the leveling of the races and the equalizing of the sexes. That's what "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female," is all about.
Wag more.
Bark less.

James S Saint
Posts:29
Joined:Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:05 pm

Re: do me a favor please?

Post by James S Saint » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:33 pm

KR Wordgazer wrote:It's easy for a man to say that talk of women's equality in the church is irrelevant. All the time I hear men in the church talking about women and what women can't do. It would be good if these men would actually start talking TO women and listening to them, rather than talking ABOUT them and listening only to each other.

It's easy when you're in the seat of privilege, to fault those who aren't, just for wanting a place at the table.
That is an example of why I don't like getting into these discussions. No matter what anyone says, it is always emotionally, prejudicially presumed to be something unsaid and unmeant.
KR Wordgazer wrote:And yes, Jesus' message, and Paul's, if carried out, do result in the leveling of the races and the equalizing of the sexes.
Or so You would preach.
KR Wordgazer wrote: That's what "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female," is all about.
That is what death is about... nothing to hate... and nothing to love (also known as the lifeless Abyss).

"There shall be no distinction. All things gray or not all all. Lions shall eat grass and Lambs shall eat meat. I say to you God made them so. They shall be Lioamb and Lamion."
Could you find that passage and verse for me?
James S Saint wrote:Normally, I don't participate in these kinds of discussions. I find them a tad vulgar, not because I have a strong opinion one way or another, but rather because I instantly see such concern beneath where the heart and mind should be.

User avatar
KR Wordgazer
Posts:1410
Joined:Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:07 pm

Re: do me a favor please?

Post by KR Wordgazer » Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:49 pm

I don't think, James, that you quite realize how dismissive, belittling and superior you sound. Why not just say, "I didn't mean what you think I meant?" rather than insinuating that it is my prejudice and emotionalism that has made me misunderstand you?

Oh well. I really don't have time for this kind of "vulgar" argument either. I certainly don't think that equality and sameness are the same thing. But if you will insist that this has to be what I meant, I have nothing to respond.
Wag more.
Bark less.

James S Saint
Posts:29
Joined:Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:05 pm

Re: do me a favor please?

Post by James S Saint » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:54 am

KR Wordgazer wrote:I don't think, James, that you quite realize how dismissive, belittling and superior you sound.
That is probably true.
But then, I always listen to women.



..but that doesn't stop me from correcting them.
You should see what I do with men.

Post Reply